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Tube of delight!

#1 2010-03-11 23:32:05

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

so this weekend I plan on...

making my first PVC shakuhachi.

I saw several posts about making PVC shakuhachi, and I figured for the cost and time, I'd like to try.  I really enjoyed Perry's instructions in particular, so I went to ACE Hardware today and blew a massive $20 or so on the parts.  I'm blogging about it here, and will post the pics, vids and results here, on my blog and on youtube.

As I told Perry, I'm immersing myself.  If this goes well, I may have found my true dharma.  Nothing has excited me this much since I found out my wife was pregnant.  ;-)


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#2 2010-03-13 23:23:51

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

The good news:

I made two flutes and can make sounds, and with a little effort I can do two octaves.

The bad (and probably expected) news:

The scales are completely off, the utaguchi on both are really steep (pics later) and I have to put my lips practically ON it to play.


The learning experience was awesome, though.  My first notes came within a minute of drilling the first hole, so I was really pleased.  It took a bit of work, but I can tell when I get the angle of the utaguchi right and figure out the hole spacing, I'll do well.

pics in a few.


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#3 2010-03-14 12:42:22

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

Here are a few of the pics.  Check out my blog post for full details.  Click on the pics for full-size version (really hi res for detail).

Try 1:

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_try1-1.jpg
Cut the ugaguchi waaay too steep, I believe.

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_try1-2.jpg

Next Try:

Tried to correct the steep cut problem.  The opening of the utaguchi seems a bit small, so I probably need to take more off of the face with a big file.  I'm sure this is common on first attempts, as someone is always afraid to make big cuts and corrections.

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_try2-1.jpg

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_try2-10.jpg

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_try2-13.jpg

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_try2-8.jpg

and the full shot:

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_try2-7.jpg

I didn't bother cleaning off of the markings or spending a ton of time on the inside.  I did notice that I need to put something in the tube when I drill the finger holes, as the drill punches through and dents the far side.  This was remedied in part by not using as much pressure on the drill (duh) and higher drill speeds with more shavings.

Anyway, I'd like everyone to comment on the n00b effort. I plan on working on the second one again today.  Thanks in advance for the feedback and help.

Last edited by ArchAngel (2010-03-14 12:42:50)


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#4 2010-03-15 13:16:57

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

ArchAngel wrote:

The good news:

I made two flutes and can make sounds, and with a little effort I can do two octaves.

The bad (and probably expected) news:

The scales are completely off, the utaguchi on both are really steep (pics later) and I have to put my lips practically ON it to play.


The learning experience was awesome, though.  My first notes came within a minute of drilling the first hole, so I was really pleased.  It took a bit of work, but I can tell when I get the angle of the utaguchi right and figure out the hole spacing, I'll do well.

pics in a few.

Hi Alan, Looks  like a great first flute! I'm curious, who's holes specs did you use and how off are they for you?

Congrats! Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#5 2010-03-15 16:39:12

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

Yungflutes wrote:

Hi Alan, Looks  like a great first flute! I'm curious, who's holes specs did you use and how off are they for you?

Congrats! Perry

I used your specs from this thread

I'll re-measure tonight.  I also think that the hole size may be a bit large.  I used a 3/8 bit, but didn't bother to go back and re-measure the actual aperture of the hole.  The problem I ran into is I couldn't find a nice long meter stick with millimeter measurements. I have a large wooden yardstick with metric on the back, and a 15cm metal ruler.  The next thing I'll do is figure a way to mount the flute while I'm drilling, as that no doubt played into the inconsistencies.

Tonight I should be able to work on the utaguchi a little.  I'd still like to figure out how to judge the actual angle, though. I saw a metal protractor in ACE hardware the other day, so I may get that. I suppose a standard plastic one could be used for a general measurement of angle.

I will make a few more this week, as practice makes better, and practice is cheap with PVC.


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#6 2010-03-15 17:34:00

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

ArchAngel wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

Hi Alan, Looks  like a great first flute! I'm curious, who's holes specs did you use and how off are they for you?

Congrats! Perry

I used your specs from this thread

I'll re-measure tonight.  I also think that the hole size may be a bit large.  I used a 3/8 bit, but didn't bother to go back and re-measure the actual aperture of the hole.  The problem I ran into is I couldn't find a nice long meter stick with millimeter measurements. I have a large wooden yardstick with metric on the back, and a 15cm metal ruler.  The next thing I'll do is figure a way to mount the flute while I'm drilling, as that no doubt played into the inconsistencies.

Tonight I should be able to work on the utaguchi a little.  I'd still like to figure out how to judge the actual angle, though. I saw a metal protractor in ACE hardware the other day, so I may get that. I suppose a standard plastic one could be used for a general measurement of angle.

I will make a few more this week, as practice makes better, and practice is cheap with PVC.

This might be useful:

       http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/25/utaguage4if.jpg


You can print it, and use it to make a gauge out of cardboard. It prints fairly lo-res (72ppi), but should suffice.

Note that this is on a long flute (85cm), so the backcut angle for the chinrest is a bit more than it'd be for a 1.8. Adjust accordingly.

Last edited by edosan (2010-03-15 17:36:26)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#7 2010-03-15 19:44:29

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

Will do.  I'll do exactly that, print it and attach it to cardboard or some such.

Measuring my flute's holes now.


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#8 2010-03-15 19:51:10

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

bottom of flute to hole #1: 120mm
center of #1 to center of #2: 54mm
center of #2 to center of #3: 46.5mm
center of #3 to center of #4: 63 mm

I can't tell about the thumb hole, but it's within a mm of 27.

all hole sizes are 10mm.


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#9 2010-03-15 20:22:40

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

okay, MASSIVE breakthrough.

I took a few degrees off of the utaguchi which opened up the aperture from 11mm to 13 mm, then I took a LOT off of the back.  I also bored out the edge where my lower lip sits, on both sides.  Well, just took the edge off, really.

click for closeup
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr192/krushrARFCOM/shakuhachi/th_afteradjustments.jpg

Now it blows WAY easier with a much more solid tune.  Not nearly as airy, which I'm guessing is because I get a good seal on the mouthpiece, and the utaguchi is at a better angle.

I'm still wondering where I went wrong on the holes.  I'm about to see what notes it blows in a minute.

Last edited by ArchAngel (2010-03-15 20:22:58)


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#10 2010-03-15 20:44:01

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

forgive the lack of nomenclature, I'll tell you what holes are open/closed and what the note registers.  I'm using this tuner:
http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html

all holes closed: D  (within 3 cents)
first hole open: E+15 to 18 cents
1,2 open: G -35 cents
1,2,3 open Ab +30 cents
1,2,3,4 open b+40 cents
open D -35 cents

closed octave: D, again within a few cents
the octave blows pretty easily, actually.  I just have to get used to a new style of embouchure. It's tough to consistently reproduce after only a few days.  big_smile


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#11 2010-03-15 21:47:05

MikeL
Member
Registered: 2008-05-18
Posts: 55

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

ArchAngel wrote:

making my first PVC shakuhachi.

I saw several posts about making PVC shakuhachi, and I figured for the cost and time, I'd like to try.  I really enjoyed Perry's instructions in particular, so I went to ACE Hardware today and blew a massive $20 or so on the parts.  I'm blogging about it here, and will post the pics, vids and results here, on my blog and on youtube.

As I told Perry, I'm immersing myself.  If this goes well, I may have found my true dharma.  Nothing has excited me this much since I found out my wife was pregnant.  ;-)

Good for you, keep at it. I've been moved to see how the "makers" on the forum are so willing
to share their knowledge.

It's really something to have a truly one of a kind instrument that just makes your day to play.

- Mike

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#12 2010-03-15 22:40:31

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

ArchAngel wrote:

I just have to get used to a new style of embouchure. It's tough to consistently reproduce after only a few days.  big_smile

Take some time every day to blow long tones, mostly Ro, first octave. Three to 10 minutes of full, controlled outbreaths, keeping pitch as constant as possible throughout, breath in, repeat. It is simply the most important single thing you can to do form and improve your embouchure.

Every day. Two times if you can.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#13 2010-03-15 22:51:00

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

That looks quite good to me. One thing you might try to do on the next one (and it can probably be changed on this one, too) is to make the bevel
flat; it looks as though it might have a slight roundness to it. Probably not all that critical with the sound, but it's sort of traditional: dead flat.

Access to a disk sander would be good for that. Another tool that's useful for that is to make a set of two or three sanding blocks,
about 3/8" x 1 1/2" x 5-6" and double stick tape two different grades of sandpaper (starting with 100) to the sides of each one. Use the
thin white stuff, comes up to 2" wide.

Another way to approach tuning the hole placement is to drill them small, just the centers of the suggested measurements at 8mm or so, then
increase the diameter and/or move the center of the hole up or down as you go to get it in tune, starting with hole one, then drilling/sizing hole
two, and on up.

The rub here is: It's not so easy for you to accurately evaluate the tuning if you're not already able to play a shakuhachi IN TUNE, which takes a
while, even for previous silver flute players.

Last edited by edosan (2010-03-15 22:53:43)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2010-03-15 23:03:47

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

One thing you might try is to widen the arc of the blowing edge which widens the sweet spot. If you haven't yet, undercutting the holes will improve the tone dramatically. It will also raise the pitch.

http://www.mujitsu.com/images/archpvc.jpg

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#15 2010-03-15 23:09:12

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

I'm probably scoring a few sanding blocks this weekend, as the filing on the utaguchi was done with the file on my Leatherman.  There's a redneck joke there somewhere.  ;-)


And that occurred to me, the tuning issues.  I was thinking : "well, X what I'm thinking the note is supposed to be because I tap the hole and get that tone, and Y is the note I'm playing.  Is there room to bend it and blow it correctly?  Am I over/underblowing?  Is it because my embouchure isn't formed yet and I'm blowing flat because I'm puckering?"  ...and fifty other questions.  I've played various instruments long enough for those kind of issues to immediately form in my mind and "overanalyze" everything I'm doing.  My task the next few weeks (along with the great practice methods you gave) will be to quit overthinking and examining everything about the playing.


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#16 2010-03-15 23:13:08

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

Mujitsu wrote:

One thing you might try is to widen the arc of the blowing edge which widens the sweet spot. If you haven't yet, undercutting the holes will improve the tone dramatically. It will also raise the pitch.

I widened the arc a few millimeters and found an immediate improvement.  I haven't messed with undercutting yet, as I wanted to try and get the utaguchi closer first.  I removed any little curlies left over from the drilling and sanded them, but that was it.

thanks for the pic, as that comparison helps on seeing how wide the aperture is .


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#17 2010-03-16 10:18:51

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

ArchAngel wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

Hi Alan, Looks  like a great first flute! I'm curious, who's holes specs did you use and how off are they for you?

Congrats! Perry

I used your specs from this thread

I'll re-measure tonight.  I also think that the hole size may be a bit large.  I used a 3/8 bit, but didn't bother to go back and re-measure the actual aperture of the hole.  The problem I ran into is I couldn't find a nice long meter stick with millimeter measurements. I have a large wooden yardstick with metric on the back, and a 15cm metal ruler.  The next thing I'll do is figure a way to mount the flute while I'm drilling, as that no doubt played into the inconsistencies.

Tonight I should be able to work on the utaguchi a little.  I'd still like to figure out how to judge the actual angle, though. I saw a metal protractor in ACE hardware the other day, so I may get that. I suppose a standard plastic one could be used for a general measurement of angle.

I will make a few more this week, as practice makes better, and practice is cheap with PVC.

Looking good Alan. I asked how off the tuning was because if you say all the notes are flat, the experience players here will say, All beginners play flat! wink

There is a lot of wiggle room for the actual pitch for each tone hole. But, in general, a shakuhachi should play a strong tone in each hole with integrity to the scale without changing embouchure positions. You will learn about the other notes in the wiggle room  if you study shakuhachi music.

MikeL wrote:

Good for you, keep at it. I've been moved to see how the "makers" on the forum are so willing
to share their knowledge.

Hi Mike,

I think the teachers here love to share also but it's much more difficult with playing than making since makers can post photos and everyone has a reference for discussion. We can look at Alan's utaguchi depth  and Ken can say, make it wider. This is clear direction. With a playing question such as "why can't my Tsu meri go deeper or louder.", there are too many variables to get through to find the issue. We can only say, get your lower lip in more, close both embouchure and finger hole, blow with focused jet but less pressure etc...

It's really something to have a truly one of a kind instrument that just makes your day to play.

- Mike

Especially if it's one crafted from your own hands!

Edit: Nice template Edosan! Mejiro sells something similar with both the top and front angles.


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#18 2010-03-16 11:05:36

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

Yungflutes wrote:

Looking good Alan. I asked how off the tuning was because if you say all the notes are flat, the experience players here will say, All beginners play flat! wink

There is a lot of wiggle room for the actual pitch for each tone hole. But, in general, a shakuhachi should play a strong tone in each hole with integrity to the scale without changing embouchure positions. You will learn about the other notes in the wiggle room  if you study shakuhachi music.

looking at my info on the notes:

ArchAngel wrote:

forgive the lack of nomenclature, I'll tell you what holes are open/closed and what the note registers.  I'm using this tuner:
http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html

all holes closed: D  (within 3 cents)
first hole open: E+15 to 18 cents
1,2 open: G -35 cents
1,2,3 open Ab +30 cents
1,2,3,4 open b+40 cents
open D -35 cents

closed octave: D, again within a few cents

if this is a D Pentatonic minor scale,  I'm actually much closer than I thought.
D - F - G - A - C - D

my first hole open is a sharp E, or a really flat F
next is a Flat G
then a really flat A
then really flat C
then a really flat D

so yeah, you're exactly right.  Beginner = really flat.  big_smile


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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#19 2010-03-17 08:38:26

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

ArchAngel wrote:

my first hole open is a sharp E, or a really flat F
next is a Flat G
then a really flat A
then really flat C
then a really flat D

so yeah, you're exactly right.  Beginner = really flat.  big_smile

Is the top D you're trying the one with all the holes closed or the other one. If it's the one with all holes closed, it's a good indication that it's your current lack of playing skill that is the problem. You've ruled out hole placement problems that way (all closed), and octaves on that note should be pretty much in tune regardless of hole placement.   

I think it's commendable that you can get good enough tone for the tuner to make any sense out of them. When I started playing the tuner kept thinking I was playing harmonics of the note I was playing. Combined with the fact that my intonation was all over the place, the tuner was kind of worthless. It still happens sometimes on some notes, but my intonation is better now.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#20 2010-03-17 23:18:59

ArchAngel
Member
Registered: 2010-03-08
Posts: 30
Website

Re: so this weekend I plan on...

radi0gnome wrote:

ArchAngel wrote:

my first hole open is a sharp E, or a really flat F
next is a Flat G
then a really flat A
then really flat C
then a really flat D

so yeah, you're exactly right.  Beginner = really flat.  big_smile

Is the top D you're trying the one with all the holes closed or the other one. If it's the one with all holes closed, it's a good indication that it's your current lack of playing skill that is the problem. You've ruled out hole placement problems that way (all closed), and octaves on that note should be pretty much in tune regardless of hole placement.

the "really flat D" is with all holes open.

The note I play with all holes closed sounds a D an octave above the low D.  Both Ds are within a few cents of right on.  Again, forgive the lack of octave/note nomenclature.  I'll get it someday.


*********
Peace and Light,
Alan

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