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Tube of delight!

#51 2010-04-16 12:57:31

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

I dont read the whole posts but as I can say I am nervous like that too. Every time when I meet a new teacher I or must play for someone who cares about my playing I am really nervous. I met 4 teachers till now including 7 days intensive with Kiku and every time I was nervous like hell but I think once you get familar with the situation it is blowin away. I am normaly a really shy person. I had a skype lesson with Kiku a few weeks ago and as I can say, I wasnt that nervous but maybe it was because I allready met Kiku before.

On 11th I met Hanada Sensei and his students at a Zen Dojo in Berlin and at the beginning he asked me to play first and talked a bit the whole class was in that room too, like always I was nervous and the playing wasnt really good.

Like I sayed every time when I met new people it get better and better so I think every shy person just have to get familar with situations like that.

I think youtube or vid teaching wont fit my needs now, at the beginning it was very nice and it helps alot but now, several in person lessons after, I dont want to miss asking questions and some wise words of my teachers. There are also some special things that cant be teach or understand by everybody by just looking a vid I think. But I can recommend Skype it isnt the same like in person lesson but I think it works quite well if you dont have access to a teacher near you or the teacher you like.


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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#52 2010-04-16 13:29:59

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

purehappiness wrote:

The best things in life are free?Doesn't money always wind up corrupting things somehow? Just a thought.

What exactly do you mean by this?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#53 2010-04-16 14:06:01

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

It just seems that there is a lot of arguing back and forth over what basically comes down to money for services. Granted, there should be some payment for training but it should not become such a big issue. I undertsand people have to live but if someone can learn something. Even a little from a video what harm does it do anyone. Obviously, a video is not going to make you an expert but it might help someone a little which can lead them down the path to a teacher in the future. I just don't think we should be snobs about someone picking up something on the internet. Afterall, knowledge should be available to everyone. It could be considered a form of charity.Also, with someone that has passed away what better way to preserve their abilities and knowledge than by having a video. Too many people try to make money of everything it just gets sickening sometimes. I wonder if in the past if a student was made to pay to learn from a teacher or if it was by bartering where a student would do things for the teacher. I am not up on this subject so I can't really say. I know I am opening a can of worms here.Generosity can be a good thing. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#54 2010-04-16 14:31:19

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

purehappiness wrote:

Generosity can be a good thing. smile

It's not about generosity or greed. It's about passing around incomplete, incomprehensible, or incorrect information about an
instrument that's already a pain in the ass to learn even when you have a competent teacher right in front of you.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#55 2010-04-16 14:34:27

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

I knew I was opening a can of worms.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#56 2010-04-16 14:40:26

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 361

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Teaching shakuhachi is not your typical capitalist venture.  No one is getting rich by teaching.

Though, it is true that information that is paid for is often treated with more respect than that "given away".

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#57 2010-04-16 14:43:41

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 829
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

I agree 100% with Ed!

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#58 2010-04-16 14:50:16

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Well, If the material is incorrect. That would be another matter. I agree with that too.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#59 2010-04-16 15:24:42

STUPID HIPPY
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 20

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

purehappiness wrote:

The best things in life are free?Doesn't money always wind up corrupting things somehow? Just a thought.

Yeah man like if we went to a system where nothing cost anything and everything was free that would be utopia man. Like Ebay but the barter system. Like a master shakuhachi teacher could offer lessons for free and then the student could grow weed for the master and cure it and shit. That would be a fair trade and no money has to change hands. Or like a far out thing would be to post lessons on youtube and then if you could post the weed on youtube in a way that you could download it and get high that would be awesome. But you'd probably have to trade some weed to get the computer to do that so maybe it would be easier to just hold onto the weed and skip the part about downloading off the net. Some strange people wouldn't even want dope so I don't know what to do about them. That's the flaw in the system but maybe if there was the right video on youtube people would get into smoking weed and blowing the shakuhachi. Just putting it out there man, don't shoot the messenger!


Zen and Bamboo are one. Or is it two? Far out.

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#60 2010-04-16 16:13:56

John
Member
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: 2010-01-13
Posts: 18
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

purehappiness wrote:

The best things in life are free? Doesn't money always wind up corrupting things somehow? Just a thought.

Since it's priceless...  but the money is part of the whole impact and equation.  I've been thinking about this a lot today as I've been thinking of signing up with Ronnie Seldin's remote lesson plan. I downloaded the starter lesson.  I could probably spend the next year just trying to get Sakura to sound smooth so why start up this rather expensive situation?

I think in some ways it taps into a need for recognition and the whole dynamic around showing your stuff to a teacher.  There is something powerful going on in knowing that a master teacher is going to personally evaluate your performance and direct you.  It's a huge stress, but at the same time it's the path to reward. 

I've been playing simple folk songs on my flute for months but the idea of recording the simple Japanese National Anthem and sending it to Ronnie is sort of terrifying.  When I practice this alone I skip right on by.  "Sure, I can play that little ditty no problem - on to the next song."  But sending off an MP3 of it to a Grand Master and ...  Wow.  Let me run through that a few more times and really try to nail it...  and even then...  I still haven't recorded it.  My recorder is still sitting there empty, daring me to record - for all time - a tune to be judged and examined by a Grand Master of the Shakuhachi.   That whole dynamic of the exchange and yes, the stress, is a priceless element that no free video lessons could ever hope to match.

Last edited by John (2010-04-16 16:17:33)


"The more necessary anything appears to my mind, the more certain it is that I only assert a limitation." ~ The Book of Lies, Ch. 45 "Chinese Music"

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#61 2010-04-16 16:25:39

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

How did we get on the subject of weed. Far Out.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#62 2010-04-16 16:34:59

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 131
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

geni wrote:

I agree 100% with Ed!

Ditto.

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#63 2010-04-16 17:59:03

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

purehappiness wrote:

I knew I was opening a can of worms.

You always do! smile

Now that being said. WHY HO WHY do people need to discuss and explain or find some ways to justify what they are doing half assed as usual. The Skype thing can be a good help but in the end you still need to have a teacher.

Then the usual excuse is... But what can you do if there is no teacher around etc. Well the answer is quite simple you don't play Shakuhachi that is all. If Shakuhachi is so important to you then you visit a teacher as often as you can this proves to yourself that you are serious enough to learn the thing.

The main problem is that the whole process of buying or getting internet videos or lessons is too easy and simple it degrades the whole thing and attracts posers.

But we have an opinion we are players also and humans beings. Hell most people trying to pussyfoot around have crappy flutes no teachers or just bare minimums of playing and understanding of the scores etc. Guess what? I will burst your bubble now if not already done. To all beginners and posers YOUR OPINION DOES NOT MATTER! Why because you don't know jack and have no experience yet the questions,suggestions,ideas or impressions you have are worthless WAIT at least 5 years with a REAL teacher and then you will have some real questions or stuff to ask.

It is exactly like teenagers talking about sex without having done anything yet and their ideas are based on porn and lots of masturbation.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#64 2010-04-16 18:12:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Gishin, could you please stop skirting the issue and tell us what you really think? We have to wade through all that verbiage and don't even know where you stand on the matter. Maybe that's Zen? wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#65 2010-04-16 18:23:46

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Gishzen.

Entirely different branch...known colloquially as "Scorched Earth Buddhism".

Last edited by edosan (2010-04-16 19:18:33)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#66 2010-04-16 18:38:43

Horst Xenmeister
Shiham
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-26
Posts: 69
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

To trading bier und wurst for lesson is legimate. Bier und Wurst for Skype lesson is illegimate for there is not posible drinking bier on internet.


i am horst

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#67 2010-04-16 19:29:48

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

I started reading this and I am responding half way through to the first part of this post which discusses if video lessons with a teacher are viable or not. 

I have taken lessons in person and via skype for a few years now.  As I have written on the forum before I feel the skype lessons have a very important role for those who wish to study regularly.  I take lessons every week via skype and get together with my teach 4-5 times a year for a weekend at a time. 

Am I amongst those that can "play" shakuhachi as some are discussing?  I believe so.  I am by no means a master but I practice for hours daily and study with a Dai Shihan weekly on skype. 

I used videos produced by licensed teachers when I started and while they gave me a frame of reference and a general direction I still ended up developing bad habits as the videos couldn't respond to my mistakes and correct me.  I think these videos serve a purpose but like it has been said, if you are serious about shakuhachi you will find the time for live lessons and take them on the good and bad days.  There is something to be learned on both days and to be honest some of my best lessons were on the days when I dreaded them most. 

One thing that does concern me and I haven't seen on here is (I may have missed it)  anyone addressing how they feel about unlicensed individuals who haven't completed a certain repertoire teaching for profit.  It seems to me that it may be disingenuous and possibly damaging to a student to learn from someone who hasn't mastered the style they are teaching. 

I could understand if someone was teaching a friend or acquaintance for free but to record videos that may be seen in the future by those not in the know as "gospel" seems damaging to shakuhachi and instructing as a whole.  There are plenty of licensed teachers accessible in this day and age that it shouldn't be necessary for someone not certified to be putting out videos that may contain bad habits or poor advice. 

Now maybe I am more sensitive to this as someone who is dedicating a large amount of his life to becoming an instructor, but I am sure there are other instructors out there who are already teaching that would question this too.  I can't speak for them but I know I would be questioning it even more if I were an accessible instructor who was witnessing this. 

I am not bringing this up as an attack on anyone but more to get the general census about how people feel about this topic.

Thanks,
Brian


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#68 2010-04-16 20:23:00

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Excellent and thoughtful post, Brian.

Members, please take note: It is because of the effort and treasure someone puts into becoming a bona fide Shihan, that it is justifiably
reasonable to charge a fee to teach someone how to play the danged thing. Try it sometime.

It should be noted that there are plenty of 'Shihans' running around out there that haven't really cut the mustard getting qualified, but have
been granted (or been able to buy) a license as a gesture of sorts, personal or political. Struth...(gasp!)

Last edited by edosan (2010-04-16 20:25:37)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#69 2010-04-16 21:33:39

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Thanks Edosan!  I really hope I hear from some others on how they feel about this too! smile


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#70 2010-04-16 23:50:04

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

edosan wrote:

Struth...(gasp!)

Egads can't you use the search engine?

http://www.google.com/search?client=saf … p;oe=UTF-8

STREWTH!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#71 2010-04-17 00:09:41

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Such deep insight Tairaku.  smile  So how do you feel about what I said?


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#72 2010-04-17 00:38:43

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Tairaku wrote:

edosan wrote:

Struth...(gasp!)

Egads can't you use the search engine?

http://www.google.com/search?client=saf … p;oe=UTF-8

STREWTH!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=struth

[Knob...]


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#73 2010-04-17 00:56:47

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

edosan wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

edosan wrote:

Struth...(gasp!)

Egads can't you use the search engine?

http://www.google.com/search?client=saf … p;oe=UTF-8

STREWTH!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=struth

[Knob...]

Shall we look up all those adjectives that describe the kind of person who says "struth"?

A citation from Urban Dictionary? Excuse me while I go wash my hands.


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#74 2010-04-17 01:08:50

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

Shall we look up all those adjectives that describe the kind of person who says "struth"?

A citation from Urban Dictionary? Excuse me while I go wash my hands.

While I am sure that is very pertinent to this discussion it is probably better to open that discussion in another thread.  I am sincerely interested in keeping on topic here and getting answers.  It seems sometimes on the forum really important discussions become diluted by "wit and sarcasm".  I feel this is really important to the future of shakuhachi transmission.  Sorry for being a stick in the mud here! I just want to keep this on topic.

Brian


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#75 2010-04-17 01:19:44

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
Website

Re: Preserving teachings in the age of Youtube

BrianP wrote:

Such deep insight Tairaku.  smile  So how do you feel about what I said?

I don't feel much but sometimes I think about this stuff.

Since you're asking me......I thought it was a very well thought out post and considered responding but didn't because I didn't have any time and also wanted to see what other people said. A lot of times they say what I'm thinking and then I don't have to write anything.

BrianP wrote:

I started reading this and I am responding half way through to the first part of this post which discusses if video lessons with a teacher are viable or not. 

I have taken lessons in person and via skype for a few years now.  As I have written on the forum before I feel the skype lessons have a very important role for those who wish to study regularly.  I take lessons every week via skype and get together with my teach 4-5 times a year for a weekend at a time. 

Am I amongst those that can "play" shakuhachi as some are discussing?  I believe so.  I am by no means a master but I practice for hours daily and study with a Dai Shihan weekly on skype.

OK this is a valuable perspective because it shows that you are using the Skype lessons as supplements to your face to face lessons, not to replace them entirely. So at least when you're taking a Skype lesson you have some sense of what you're getting and not fully getting from the process. Without the experience of traditional lessons in a real room with somebody you'd have less sense of context and the Skype lessons would not be as good because you wouldn't be able to fill in the gaps as well. Not knowing what those gaps are.

My personal thought on this matter is that Skype, DVD's, Books, and this forum or other internet dissemination of ideas are most useful as condiments, not as the main course. The main course is lessons and practice which is focused and not random. Now I'm in "do as I say, not as I do" mode because I don't take lessons anymore, partially because I am isolated geographically.

I had a discussion with my teacher James Nyoraku Schlefer two days ago (not related to this thread) and we both mentioned how we are requested to do internet lessons. Neither one of us want to do it because we don't think we'd enjoy the experience. And I guess we don't think it's quite enough. It would even be useful to me because I'm so isolated from potential students but I still don't want to do it. However I can see how in your case or other cases it could be useful.

BrianP wrote:

I used videos produced by licensed teachers when I started and while they gave me a frame of reference and a general direction I still ended up developing bad habits as the videos couldn't respond to my mistakes and correct me.  I think these videos serve a purpose but like it has been said, if you are serious about shakuhachi you will find the time for live lessons and take them on the good and bad days.  There is something to be learned on both days and to be honest some of my best lessons were on the days when I dreaded them most.

I don't think you can teach yourself efficiently with books and videos until you have a significant amount of knowledge learned from teachers.

BrianP wrote:

One thing that does concern me and I haven't seen on here is (I may have missed it)  anyone addressing how they feel about unlicensed individuals who haven't completed a certain repertoire teaching for profit.  It seems to me that it may be disingenuous and possibly damaging to a student to learn from someone who hasn't mastered the style they are teaching. 

I could understand if someone was teaching a friend or acquaintance for free but to record videos that may be seen in the future by those not in the know as "gospel" seems damaging to shakuhachi and instructing as a whole.  There are plenty of licensed teachers accessible in this day and age that it shouldn't be necessary for someone not certified to be putting out videos that may contain bad habits or poor advice.

I agree with most of this. But in my discussion with Nyoraku he said, "People can do whatever they want" regarding teaching without a license. Basically I got the impression he thought it was none of our business what other people do or what their qualifications are or are not.

But for me personally I did not charge for lessons before I had my license. Those lessons were either for people who could not afford another teacher or supplemental lessons to Jim and Ronnie's students, i.e. people in the circle.

As far as videos are concerned there are tons of videos of me out there but I do not present them as instructional. They only show how I do things, which in some ways is unorthodox. People should not use my videos as a guide. I don't know if some of my stuff shows bad habits and don't care because my technique works for me to do the music I want to do.

BrianP wrote:

Now maybe I am more sensitive to this as someone who is dedicating a large amount of his life to becoming an instructor, but I am sure there are other instructors out there who are already teaching that would question this too.  I can't speak for them but I know I would be questioning it even more if I were an accessible instructor who was witnessing this. 

I am not bringing this up as an attack on anyone but more to get the general census about how people feel about this topic.

I also agree with this personally. Before I had my license I always referred inquisitive students to licensed teachers, usually Jim first but I would also tell them about Ronnie, Ralph, Marco and others so they'd know what was available.

But if there's no licensed teacher available and you have more knowledge than someone else it's good to share it and I think that's OK. Also in some cases a student might want to study with a particular individual for personal reasons and have decided that person is right for them although they're not licensed. That's their choice.

I would not like to address the whole issue of the validity of licensing or that some players don't have licenses and are exceptional players or teachers. Great players and teachers have natural authority which is self evident in their playing. I think guys like Kurahashi and Yoshizawa were unlicensed but their musicianship qualifies them to teach.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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