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#1 2006-06-11 22:06:41

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

In making my jinashi/hocchiku, I've been turning to magical cyanoacrylate (a.k.a "Super Glue", "Hot Stuff", etc.) for several things.  I use a very thin layer to finish/seal utaguchi (polishes with steel wool or fine paper and looks great), for filling and moving holes with bamboo dust, and to coat little root stems before filing/sanding to prevent splintering.

Is anyone aware of how this stuff might age or break down over decades?  It's an acrylic resin.  Discoloration doesn't bother me as much as outright separation/crumbling/cracking.

Just wondering...

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#2 2006-06-11 23:55:15

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

dstone wrote:

Is anyone aware of how this stuff might age or break down over decades?  It's an acrylic resin.  Discoloration doesn't bother me as much as outright separation/crumbling/cracking.

I used it (Hot Stuff, specifically) for 20 years for stringed instrument repair. Most applications were within a glue line between two materials, but also used it often mixed with wood powder to fill wear divots in fingerboards, and it seemed very stable--the fills were even harder than the original fingerboard material. Also used it for pearl inlay work, with the same good results.

The accelerator that is sold with it in spritzer bottles actually increases its bond strength and durability.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2006-06-12 13:28:14

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

Thanks Ed.  That's useful data.  I agree; when carefully applied and polished, it can result in a very hard, very glass-like surface. 

But I recall (I think) Perry Yung saying in his blog at some point that he avoids using super glue to repair certain things because it can flake off or something to that effect.  It may have been something very specific.  I'll dig for that.

Any other makers seen the condition of cyanoacrylate work after 20 years?  It has been around as an industrial and consumer glue since at least the early 1960s.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#4 2006-06-12 15:19:09

evan kubota
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Registered: 2006-04-10
Posts: 136

Re: How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

Cyano is very durable and 'timeproof,' at least as much as anything else. Flaking off is less a condition of the adhesive than of the application, IMO. I personally wouldn't use it for utaguchi work because the area is close to my mouth (but when fully cured this shouldn't be an issue). I mistakenly got a few drops on the sanded, raw root end while applying a decorative rattan wrapping and it does seal the wood nicely.

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#5 2006-06-24 04:22:42

Yu-Jin
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2005-11-30
Posts: 108

Re: How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

Evan, I don't think cyanoacrylate will be much of a problem. There was a technique of using this glue to attach the splint to the teeth in Dentistry (yeah, right in the mouth). Of course it should be totally dry.

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#6 2006-06-24 04:44:37

evan kubota
Member
Registered: 2006-04-10
Posts: 136

Re: How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

True, but in my experience it can sometimes create whitish 'frosting' on nearby areas (even after it's cured, apparently). I'm not sure if this is due to outgassing or what. Forensic analysts use the 'frosting' property for sealing fingerprints on evidence.

It's probably safe enough, but I prefer the feel of unfinished bamboo. I do sand to a fairly fine grit which gives a very smooth surface.

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#7 2006-06-25 03:32:03

daiishi
Member
From: Arkansas
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 8
Website

Re: How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

I have found, and I even remember Tom Deaver mentioning something about this, that when the bamboo gets a patina due to age the areas under the superglue never change so they show up more with time. If you are coating the whole thing as a sealant that wouldn't be an issue. I have tried it but prefer tung oil. The frosting is a function of the curing process and moisture. Too much humidity will get you frosting. Where it is frosted it is slightly weaker (still very strong) than where it is clear as an indication of the crystaline structure. I have a shakuhachi brother who is a physics professor and I bug him about just this sort of question all the time.

Have fun


Some say history and tradition are everything. Some say their way is the only way. Some say the shakuhachi is just a container for a column of vibrating air. I suspect the truth is between all these.

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#8 2006-06-25 12:15:12

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: How does cyanoacrylate age? (e.g. super glues)

Regarding cyanoacrylate:

Although I have used it for this (as in small finish touch-ups on guitar repairs), CA is not at its best as a surface coating, but in adhering two intimately-contacting surfaces together. It loves a basic pH best and is more unhappy in an acidic environment. All things in the gluing environment being equal (moisture level, pH, surface cleanliness, etc.), the thin runny type of CA is stronger (assuming the surfaces fit very well) than the gap filling gel variety. It's possible to achieve bond strengths of up to 5000 psi with CA.

CA uses an anaerobic process to achieve a bond: In the absence of oxygen, off it goes. That's why it works so very well in sticking two fingers together very quickly...smile  Another way to stimulate its bond reaction is to apply it in the presence of baking soda (very basic)--great for filling gaps with rock-hard material, if you don't care if the filling is white. Accelerators in mist spray bottles are also available for curing surface applications, which are generally slow-curing since oxygen is present.

eB

Last edited by edosan (2006-06-25 12:17:29)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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