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#1 2010-10-11 18:55:14

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Itchoken Honkyoku

Hello All-
I was wondering if anyone has had any direct transmission from the Itchoken line of Honkyoku. I know there are pieces in the Dokyoku and Jin Nyodo repertoire, but I am specifically wondering about transmission from Itchoken in Hakata, Kyushu. I have heard about a teacher Izo Jozan , Tsunoda Rogetsu and Nakamura Kikufu. Does anyone have any experience with this Honkyoku? Does anyone know the repertoire? What sets the style apart from Myoan Taizan Ha? Recordings? Etc. Etc.

I am especially interested in the Saji pieces: Bo Saji, Yuri Saji and Neri Saji. I have heard versions by Akikazu Nakamura and Okuda Atsuya, but they seem more influenced by Watazumido recordings. I am interested in the way these pieces originally sounded before Watazumido got to them. Any info would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
-Prem

Last edited by -Prem (2010-10-11 19:06:36)

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#2 2010-10-11 20:06:55

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Itchoken Honkyoku

If you go to Nyoraku's site he descibes his trip there.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2010-10-11 22:05:43

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Itchoken Honkyoku

-Prem wrote:

Hello All-
I was wondering if anyone has had any direct transmission from the Itchoken line of Honkyoku. I know there are pieces in the Dokyoku and Jin Nyodo repertoire, but I am specifically wondering about transmission from Itchoken in Hakata, Kyushu.

Hi Prem,
You asked me this privately but for the sake of people reading your question here I'll just mention a few things. Watazumi was the head of Itchoken. So the lineages from Watazumi, mainly being Yokoyama Katsuya's school of course, are transmissions from Hakata Itchoken.

-Prem wrote:

I have heard about a teacher Izo Jozan , Tsunoda Rogetsu and Nakamura Kikufu.

Iso Jozan, his wife and his son inhabit the temple now known as Itchoken, which is not in fact the Itchoken temple but is the home of the 2nd revival of Itchoken. Iso learned from Watazumi, but mainly from Yamaue Getsuzan. As mentioned in the thread on Sato Reido, Sato was Yamaue's top deshi - more can be read about Yamaue there.
http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 78&p=1

Iso also learned from Tsunoda Rogetsu. Yamaue and Watazumi also learned from Rogetsu, although both also learned from many other teachers. Nakamura Kikufu learned mainly from Rogetsu. Watazumi also learned from Kikufu.

Takahashi Kuzan also learned some Kyushu pieces.

-Prem wrote:

Does anyone have any experience with this Honkyoku? Does anyone know the repertoire? What sets the style apart from Myoan Taizan Ha? Recordings? Etc. Etc.

Yes. I have learned the Kyushu pieces of Jin's lineage from Jin's top deshi, and all the Kyushu pieces of Yamaue's lineage, which includes the Kyushu pieces of Rogetsu's lineage and others. I've also learned those pieces of Watazumi's lineage which are taught in Yokoyama's school. Miyagawa Nyozan's Ajikan I also learned from his student Kuzan's lineage, which is another Kyushu piece.

Taizan Ryu is generally slower and simpler than Kyushu style which is more lively. Watazumi was very unique, very wild so I don't think we can consider his style as representing everyone in Kyushu! However, some of that lively aspect I think is from the typical Kyushu essence. If you listen to Miyagawa Nyozan's recording you will get some impression of this lively aspect.

Taizan Ryu has had a massive influence on Kyushu so finding pure Kyushu style is very very hard. Nyozan of course was a deshi of Taizan. So was Rogetsu. In fact Yamaue, who had studied from Rogetsu earlier, remarked that when Rogetsu got older his style became almost totally Taizan Ryu style, even for his non-Taizan Ryu pieces.

-Prem wrote:

I am especially interested in the Saji pieces: Bo Saji, Yuri Saji and Neri Saji. I have heard versions by Akikazu Nakamura and Okuda Atsuya, but they seem more influenced by Watazumido recordings.

Nakamura Akikazu would have learned at least Yamagoe from Yokoyama. Certainly though he developed his own style, and also would have been listening to Watazumi's recordings. Not sure if Okuda ever got as far as learning Yamagoe from Yokoyama but as you mention, generally gets such pieces from Watazumi's LPs.

-Prem wrote:

I am interested in the way these pieces originally sounded before Watazumido got to them. Any info would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
-Premc

Kyushu style has been the most difficult for me to understand in terms of pure style, due to the fact that Kyushu was so heavily influenced by Taizan Ryu so early on, and no school remained which played only the Kyushu style. However, I have tried my best to find at least what seem the purest available, and some of these pieces are really great, really enjoyable to play. I'd be happy to share these so contact me privately if you wish to study.

Writing today from Hakata, Kyushu.

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#4 2010-10-12 13:57:55

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: Itchoken Honkyoku

Yes, Justin. Thank you so very much for your post! I was going to post some of what you wrote to me but I like to keep private, private. So thanks for re-posting here. It is wonderful information.

I do have a question for you though. What are the Kyushu pieces you have learned from the Yamaue Getsuzan line of transmission? Also, when you say that Taizan Ha has influenced the Itchoken style so early on, in what manner? For instance, I know there are distinct Kyushu pieces that are from that area (Saji pieces, I believe Banshiki Cho, Kumoi no Kyoku, etc.), would these pieces not have existed WAY before Taizan's era. Is it just that the Taizan Ha style become popular and everyone wanted to learn it? I am curious.

Thanks,
-Prem

P.S. I find it a nice coincidence that you are there as we speak!

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#5 2010-10-13 07:57:23

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Itchoken Honkyoku

-Prem wrote:

Yes, Justin. Thank you so very much for your post! I was going to post some of what you wrote to me but I like to keep private, private. So thanks for re-posting here. It is wonderful information.

Hi Prem,
Yes thanks for respecting the privacy of what I wrote to you.

-Prem wrote:

I do have a question for you though. What are the Kyushu pieces you have learned from the Yamaue Getsuzan line of transmission?

Banshiki/Kuyo/Daiotsu
Saji/Sashi of Itchoken and of Rinseiken
Neri Saji
Shinshichi Saji
Takane Saji of Itchoken and Rinseiken

Akebono Shishi/Kumoi
Koku Reibo of Itchoken
Kumoi Netori

These are the main pieces. There are also other pieces such as Toppiki, Azuma, Sagariha and so on which have been transmitted in Kyushu a fairly long time but may originate from the old Myoan lineage of Kyoto. Some of these pieces I have learned from both lines of transmission, and some of these and also the main pieces I listed above from multiple lineages also, where some ifferences have been preserved.


-Prem wrote:

Also, when you say that Taizan Ha has influenced the Itchoken style so early on, in what manner? For instance, I know there are distinct Kyushu pieces that are from that area (Saji pieces, I believe Banshiki Cho, Kumoi no Kyoku, etc.), would these pieces not have existed WAY before Taizan's era. Is it just that the Taizan Ha style become popular and everyone wanted to learn it? I am curious.

I didn't say the Itchoken style, but Kyushu in general. Itchoken was just one of several temples existing in Kyushu.
Why I say this is that pretty much all the famous shakuhachi characters in the Kyushu honkyoku world during the Meiji period and after were involved with Taizan Ryu. Miyagawa Nyozan, Shimizu Seizan and Tsunoda Rogetsu were the most famous. They were all students of Higuchi Taizan, although they also learned from others. Seizan set up a Myoan branch school in Kyushu, as did Rogetsu. These were branches of Taizan's Myoan school. There's not much in the present day that doesn't come through them or their students, although we do have some stuff. But that should give you an idea of the scene which was happening there. The Kyushu pieces which remained were generally transmitted in primarily Taizan Ryu based schools. Not totally, as Rogetsu was also a Soetsu Ryu player, though as I mentioned he became more and more Taizan Ryu style as he got older. OK my internet time is up!

-Prem wrote:

P.S. I find it a nice coincidence that you are there as we speak!

Yes!

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