Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Hi Kiku,

Thanks for your comments; I hope your concerts in Copenhagen went well.  I'd love to be the official forum poet; maybe it would force me to work more on my rhymes.  I've been writing occasionally for a poetry circle that meets once a month in Kochi and was just trying to get a little extra practice by writing on the forum.  I freely admit to my examples of the usage of shakuhachi terms in Kochi as being anecdotal, as Brian pointed out.  I talked again to the guy who makes my flutes, Genpu Morikawa, tonight and he says that 25 years or so ago when he was learning shakuhachi making from the maker Chikuzen, the other makers in training above him were using the term ji o oku when referring to making jinashi shakuhachi, and that as ji o moru could also be used to mean the same thing he understands the term though they never used that term.  As you pointed out, Kiku, the use of the term jimori is new and though it may be used in Osaka and of course in the jinashi making community it is unknown among Kinko or Tozan players here in Kochi, but who knows what terms they are using even in the other prefectures in Shikoku.  If it is useful or there is a need for the term jimori in order to differentiate flutes with a few dabs of ji from jinashi or jiari (another term which Morikawa san never hears used in his circle of shakuhachi makers or players but can readily understand if there is a need to make the distinction) as Brian says,  then I see no reason why it should not be used, whether there is an "agenda" behind it or it; if you can rediscover a term used in the past and help it to catch on, why not? If it is already instituted in a museum then it may have a good chance. 

And hello Justin, I think I mentioned in my article the increasing popularity of longer flutes; that was also largely anecdotal; I think I mentioned the popularity of longer flutes overseas and the development of a flute called Taimu.  I also think the popularity of bigger, fatter flutes must have had its start with the influence of Watazumi, as you pointed out. There is no direct connection with Irish whistles, just the fact that low whistles, which started being made in the 1970s or so, have become more popular recently, as least here in Kochi I've seen them being played in recent years whereas before I never saw them at all.  And another point which I confirmed tonight, when Genpu made jinashi (he hasn't in years) he did apply ji to certain points in the bore of the flute.  Genpu also mentioned seeing novelty type flutes recently which had no ji in them but which had smoothed out bores like jiari flutes.   And Gishin, if you really want to say it the kunrei way I think it's syakuhati, at least in the articles I've read by Simura; I'll have to check on those...

Kiku, you are a very nice and generous researcher. I won't spell their names that way because it's confusing and stupid. Shimura sensei told me the same thing, it was because he had originally published in English under that unpronouncable style that he thought people would get confused or couldn't easily search his name etc. I think most of them were heavily influenced by Yamaguchi Osama, who is a pretty good interpreter who used to teach at my university, Osaka University. He now is sort of (pretty much retired) at Osaka Fine Arts University along with Tsukitani and Shimura (which has been sort of mis posted lately - unfortunately I'm the only one at Osaka University who cares about shakuhachi research).  But Yamaguchi translated most of everyone's shakuhachi related paper's so I think he probably pushed for the style of Kunrei as well. Just a guess though.

" Both told me that they prefer Kunrei because they don't like the assumption that everything in the world should be organized for the benefit of English speakers. The personal is political etc." I've heard this too and can understand where they are coming from, there are stubborn people everywhere in the world.  If they had no desire to accomodate with the English speaking world, that's fine, but if they really didn't care about communicating with the English speaking world they wouldn't be so hooked on going against the logical method. Japanese people don't need romaji! If they are using it it should be to communicate with outsiders. Sorry for the rant, kunrei is just annoying. 
Nothing about Ji-nashi so far...so
I use the terms shakuhachi and jinashi. For those who care about the subject I go into detail about it being a ji-mori or what kind of sound it produces. Most people might not care about the details though. However, I met a solo wadaiko player who was particularly intrigued and wanted to perform with me simply because I had put some of the details of the flutes I was using in the song description section of my myspace. He didn't understand any of it, but he saw that attention to detail (ie. Otaku nerd language) as a seriousness that not many players in Japan take into account. He himself wants to perform with people who love the details of their music. In my experience, too much info has usually lead to good things. When I perform and explain about the flutes I use as well as the history or theme of the piece, the people who really care will take the time to listen and enjoy the learning process. This adds to the overall experience I think.

Josh wrote:

" Both told me that they prefer Kunrei because they don't like the assumption that everything in the world should be organized for the benefit of English speakers. The personal is political etc." I've heard this too and can understand where they are coming from, there are stubborn people everywhere in the world.  If they had no desire to accomodate with the English speaking world, that's fine, but if they really didn't care about communicating with the English speaking world they wouldn't be so hooked on going against the logical method. Japanese people don't need romaji! If they are using it it should be to communicate with outsiders. Sorry for the rant, kunrei is just annoying. 
Nothing about Ji-nashi so far...so
.

In a way they are racist Japanese idiots of the Tenno Heika Banzai type! It has been made so French, German etc everybody could readf and speak Japanese names/words to an acceptable level not just for English speakers.

Anyway Kunrei sucks and was made for Japanese by Japanese.

Dude, you called the embassy.. that's pretty cool. See what they say about our jinashi definition problem

Kiku, I submit in December, but I'm sure that will feel like tomorrow! We're going back to Buffalo for a few months this summer, escaping the crappy heat and hoping to get some focused writing done. By the way, we recently had a little girl So I haven't really been sleeping lately.

ABRAXAS wrote:

Ia! Cthulhu Jinashi Fthagn! Ph'nglui mglw'nfah Cthulhu Hotchiku wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Damned bookstore owners....

Gishin wrote:

Ok the use of Kunrei should be forbidden or corrected on this forum. I called both the Consulate and Embassy of Japan and both clearly told me that for ANY documents that are known to be LEGAL and used inside or outside ofr Japan it has to be of Hepburn form. Anybody government wise using any other way of spelling is considered non valid.

I already knew that this was the case but wanted to be sure since people here like to beat around the bush with clear facts.

I know that Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ is an unbelievably important factor in everyone's life and that everything published here is gospel (or heresy!). But to realize that we've now raised to Governmental status is truly an honor! Besides being a university and subject to academic restrictions. Wow we are really onto something!

I barely got out of high school, but my wife has a Ph.D. so I learned this one by osmosis:

"In academia the fights are so fierce because the stakes are so low."

No-sword wrote:

No, Gishin, Hepburn was invented by an English speaker for the convenience of people like him. Period. To give you just one example of speakers of other languages who have trouble with it, I often hear French people pronouncing the "ch" and initial "h" wrong... and by "wrong" I mean "as if they were French." I met a German speaker with similar problems once too.

Yes I did know that !!!

But main point is that the Hepburn system is mostly used and approved by outside country  as the reference plus it HAS to be in Hepburn in any passport. Well I am French and if francophones cannot say the Hepburn system the right way sorry to say but they are functional retards and would not be able to speak in any other languages. My main tongue is French and the Hepburn system did help and Kunrei was more of a bitch on the long run made by and for Japanese.

Anyway internationally now it is mostly Hepburn. Only Japanese that only know of Kunrei and cannot speak any other language or Ultra nationalist freaks that think we should be Japanese.

Ya but Gishin, you are from Canada, right? So your exposure to English is different. Plus, you had an interest in Japan and actually cared about pronunciation to begin with, I assume. And we can't discount the possibility that you are just really smart

When my wife was living in France, she started spelling her name "Tchié" (note accent!) because that was the only way to get anyone other than Japanophiles to pronounce it right. I don't think this was because everyone in France is retarded. I think it's because Hepburn wasn't designed with the convenience of French speakers in mind.

Anyway internationally now it is mostly Hepburn.

Yeah, no argument there.

Only Japanese that only know of Kunrei and cannot speak any other language or Ultra nationalist freaks that think we should be Japanese.

"... use Kunrei"? Not true. Sorry, man. (Side note: In my experience ultra-nationalist freaks use Hepburn, because that's what's easier to pick up by osmosis rather than at school... ultra-nationalist freaks generally aren't big on school.)

Anyway I don't want to start a secondary flame war on an even more ridiculous (and non-shakuhachi-related) topic, so I'll bow out now. I just wanted to stand up for the Kunrei partisans a little.

Riley Lee wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

"In academia the fights are so fierce because the stakes are so low."

What fight? It was a mere request for 'further clarification', I assure you!

I doubt that this discussion qualifies as being academic (try as some of us might), and many of us wouldn't be here if it did qualify, so I'm not convinced that your well-known quote is pertinent here. But even if it were, surely you would agree that what makes a fight really entertaining is not how high or low the stakes are, so much as the in's and out's of the fighting itself.

And mostly: who wins...

Quick: Somebody, please teach me how to make that laughing smiley ! ! !

Riley, I will look at sticky no 1 sooner or later. But I have deadline 30th June. Sorry!

For those who want a different order to read things and not some of my personal stuff,  skip to the PROPOSAL  section at the end of this letter.


Ed, I was out of town when the jinashi thread ate Cleveland!  I'll keep the poster though.

The definitions in Riley's sticky work fine for me. I was used to the word Hocchiku so if someone says Hocchiku, I immediately think of raw bamboo flutes. If some one says Jimori, I immediately think of jinashi with a dab of ji.  Senchiku works fine for me and will take some getting used to but it could be useful on the forum.  However, I'm sure I will continue to use the word Hocchiku with my friends and students who understand that term. Likewise, if someone uses the word Kyotaku in referring to an instrument, I will only know about it
from what I've read on this forum. Senchiku is generic enough to be Inclusive and not Exclusive. I think Hocchiku and Kyotaku can be used with historical awareness of their origins.

  Common sense says know who you are talking to and try to communicate. We know that there are going to be differences in Japan and outside Japan, so we need to decide what to use on the forum.

   I just finished 6 months of collaborations with Yamaguchi Shugetsu-san in the making of a custom-made flute.  He never used the word "jimori" although he understood when I used it as I explained I wanted a little ji in it to fix up the pitches. His replies were always that he would decide later if he needed to "Ji wo oku ka, okanai ka" himself (to use a little ji or not) at a point when he would be trying to decide whether the flute needed it or not. He sent me the first flute using the term: "Perfect jinashi". I assumed this meant "completely without Ji". I sent the flute back with advice for having tuning adjustments made. After some time graciously spent by Shugetsu-san (I'm very thankful for this as I couldn't have played them otherwise) "putting in Ji and taking out Ji" I received another "Perfect Jinashi"!! So, now you DO have the scenario of a Japanese maker using an English word in a special way. It is a "Perfect Jinashi" and it has a little ji in it. I personally have no trouble with the word because I speak Japanese and was in contact  with him throughout the process, sending the flute back and forth, and all this was done in Japanese, except those two words. However, I'm not sure someone would understand this if they weren't aware of the usage, or couldn't speak Japanese.

A PROPOSAL: We need to make a dictionary that includes ALL the words with their definitions in context. We could put a symbol beside each entry to designate where the word is used. For example: if the word is used on the forum we could write:  Jinashi SF (for shaku forum); maybe circle SF, and then write the appropriate definition. 

So, now we'll need symbols for at least 4 places:
1: words and definitions used on the ShakuGrill Forum
2: words and definitions commonly used in Japan
3: words and definitions NOT commonly used in Japan
4: words and definitions used in academia inside and outside of Japan.

There could also be one long list, like a dictionary, with every word we need defined included and having a reference to the 4 above by creating a small symbol and putting it by that vocabulary entry. Even if they are contradictory or different to/from each other, they wouldn't be so if in context.  This would enable people to find the word, see how it's used and where. We have enough of a talent pool on the forum to do this. If someone has a word they think is necessary than they should submit it for review. This is one way to bypass setting up a voting system and keep this forum very INCLUSIVE in nature.

I nominate the following people to be on the Shaku Grill Dictionary Committee for GOOD reasons. Of course, others could be nominated and people nominated can say "No Thanks".

1.Brian Ritchie
2.Ken LaCosse
3.Ed Beaty
4.Dr. Riley Lee
5.Kiku Day
6.Justin Senryu
7. Josh Smith
7. Daniel Ryudo
8. Horst Xenmeister

This PROPOsal needs a lot more thought and work but I'm putting it out there anyway in incompletion.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-05-20 20:43:23)