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#51 2009-02-15 15:56:14

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 401
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Just like people can learn on a 1.8 and then translate that to a longer flute, you can also change flutes later after you understand more about what you want to play on.
No matter how or what the flutes made from, if you don't have an ear developed for pitch and you are trying to do that,  a badly pitched flute isn't going to be much help in that area. You need something dependable for a reference.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#52 2009-02-15 16:32:42

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3202
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

chikuzen wrote:

Just like people can learn on a 1.8 and then translate that to a longer flute.

Not so sure about that Michael, some players and makers can't adapt. Knowledge maybe but not always technique. That's why you see people using conventional grip on long flutes when there are better ways to hold it. Maybe it would actually be better to teach 1.8 stuff on 1.8 and long flute stuff on long flutes rather than expecting people to change later. I see them as being different, like mandolin, guitar and bass are really different.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#53 2009-02-15 22:30:28

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1036
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Can someone verify this? Someone told me that the Yokoyama Honkyoku set release by Monty has Yokoyama saying in the preface that Honkyoku should be played on longer Jinashi instruments?


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#54 2009-02-15 22:50:52

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3202
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Yungflutes wrote:

Can someone verify this? Someone told me that the Yokoyama Honkyoku set release by Monty has Yokoyama saying in the preface that Honkyoku should be played on longer Jinashi instruments?

Haven't seen that but in his interview in Contemporary Music Review he says jinashi are best for honkyoku.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#55 2009-02-15 23:14:12

Larry Tyrrell
Moderator
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 2005-11-09
Posts: 73
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Hello,

I always wonder, knowing Yokoyama, if this meaning isn't being taken out of context.  My take on it is that he means they are "best used for honkyoku"
not "the best thing to use for honkyoku".  He also is saying by implication that they are best 'not' used in other genres.  This at least sums up his attitude
as I understood it.  Let's face it. Yokoyama always used the best flute he could possibly use.  That works for me...

Larry

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#56 2009-02-16 00:11:12

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 357

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Yungflutes wrote:

Can someone verify this? Someone told me that the Yokoyama Honkyoku set release by Monty has Yokoyama saying in the preface that Honkyoku should be played on longer Jinashi instruments?

In the "About the Scores" section:
"..."In truth... the spirit of each honkyoku is best expressed on its own of length of flute.  This judgment is highly subjective, so we cannot prescribe a specific flute length for each song.  But in general, we can state that a flute length of 2.1 or greater will result in a better feeling for these pieces.  We recommend longer flutes."

I do not see anything about jinashi in particular.

-Michael

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#57 2009-02-16 00:47:57

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3202
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Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Larry Tyrrell wrote:

Hello,

I always wonder, knowing Yokoyama, if this meaning isn't being taken out of context.  My take on it is that he means they are "best used for honkyoku"
not "the best thing to use for honkyoku".  He also is saying by implication that they are best 'not' used in other genres.  This at least sums up his attitude
as I understood it.  Let's face it. Yokoyama always used the best flute he could possibly use.  That works for me...

Larry

I don't have it here, but he says something like, "For the Fuke pieces a simple bamboo tube with holes drilled is ideal".

Elsewhere in the article he also says honkyoku is best played without vibrato, and we all know what his actual practice was.

I think he was talking philosophically.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#58 2009-02-16 07:12:54

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Yungflutes wrote:

Can someone verify this? Someone told me that the Yokoyama Honkyoku set release by Monty has Yokoyama saying in the preface that Honkyoku should be played on longer Jinashi instruments?

Yokoyama-sensei has said to me something to the effect that really, one wants a jinashi. He said this in the context of me bringing an excellant jinashi to my lesson. But Yokoyama-sensei is very fussy about shakuhachi. He was really glad I was playing that shakuhachi, as he liked it. But that is not to say he would recommend any of his students to play bad jinashi. Why did he not play jinashi himself? I believe it is because he only found one jinashi which was good enough. That was made by Kurosawa Kinko, and he really loved it. But it did not belong to him.

So to make it clear, I have never heard Yokoyama-sensei saying that the honkyoku SHOULD be played on jinashi. His preference would be for jinashi, so long as the jinashi is good enough. But in reality, there are nearly no jinashi that are good enough. If a low-level student played a so-so or bad jinashi (or jiari for that matter), he may be polite and not complain. This may be especially true if they are just visiting. But he is usually much harder on higher level students. It seems he prefers his students to play on high quality shakuhachi, and especially if they are good players he seems to want them to use shakuhachi which can play properly. That is not surprising. He wants his students to be good, to progress as much as they can. A bad shakuhachi just prevents that or hinders it unnecessarily. It hinders their learning process and restrains their potential.

So, I would never imagine him to recommend anyone to play bad jinashi. Bad in this case would mean jinashi with a sound he would not like, or giving results he would not like, such as poor pitch etc. Seeing as that is most jinashi, it is not a surprise to see that most of his students do not use jinashi.

That is the context as far as I understand it, from having questioned Yokoyama-sensei on this issue. There are elder Yokoyama students here on the forum such as Chikuzen who may have more to say about this too.

The few teachers who have their students playing amateur-made or poorly made (in musical terms) jinashi, are generally teachers who are not concerned with music. They may say that their honkyoku is "suizen". In which case it may not be necessary to call those "musical instruments". That is fine. That can also be very good. But the two should not be confused. Yokoyama-sensei is a great musician. He is transmitting music. This does not have to be separate from Zen, or suizen, by the way. In the Edo period, many komuso were great musicians. I have tried for example some shakuhachi used past komuso masters such as Yoshida Itcho, and they were exceptionally good musical instruments. So also in Yokoyama-sensei's school students should have a musical instrument for study. I think this may have been Chikuzen's point.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#59 2009-02-16 08:31:07

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Tairaku wrote:

Elsewhere in the article he also says honkyoku is best played without vibrato, and we all know what his actual practice was.

My understanding of what Yokoyama means by playing with no vibrato, is that long notes in honkyoku should be played without vibrato such as is found in Kinko-ryu honkyoku or in Tozan-ryu music (or much Western classical singing). Many people come from Kinko-ryu or Tozan-ryu to study with Yokoyama-sensei and his school, and with them they often bring the habit of playing with constant yuri. Some players of non-Kinko Fuke honkyoku play with quite constant yuri, but many play without. When I listen to Yokoyama-sensei's honkyoku, I do not hear that constant yuri. I hear long tones quite pure and straight.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#60 2009-02-16 09:08:58

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Justin, I think it's a mistake to suggest that Kinko-ryu players play honkyoku with yuri as a practice.  My teacher, Tsurugi Kodo,  is a strict kinko player very proud of his heritage and he uses very little yuri as a matter of personal interjection.  If it's written, he plays it, but in the case of honkyoku, his idea is that ornamentation unless otherwise indicated, should be avoided.  He may well be the exception though.  His teacher, Kawase Junsuke III certainly plays with yuri much of the time, so it would seem that Tsurugi sensei has his own, developed ideas as do many players.


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with holes in my bones

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#61 2009-02-16 16:46:43

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3202
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Larry Tyrrell wrote:

Hello,

I always wonder, knowing Yokoyama, if this meaning isn't being taken out of context.  My take on it is that he means they are "best used for honkyoku"
not "the best thing to use for honkyoku".  He also is saying by implication that they are best 'not' used in other genres.  This at least sums up his attitude
as I understood it.  Let's face it. Yokoyama always used the best flute he could possibly use.  That works for me...

Larry

Pretty clear here. Contemporary Music Journal Volume 8 Part 2

Yokoyama: "The best shakuhachi for the classic repertoire is the one which retains the bamboo nodes, a really crude one that is cut out of a larger piece, with the mouthpiece just a simple slash across the bamboo at an angle and the insides just hollowed out. A good shakuhachi made simply like this is perfect for the classics."

He goes on to say that for the "contemporary" repertoire jiari is preferable mainly because of volume and projection.

This is an excellent interview and anybody interested in Yokoyama or shakuhachi in general would enjoy reading it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#62 2009-02-16 16:49:59

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3202
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Justin wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Elsewhere in the article he also says honkyoku is best played without vibrato, and we all know what his actual practice was.

My understanding of what Yokoyama means by playing with no vibrato, is that long notes in honkyoku should be played without vibrato such as is found in Kinko-ryu honkyoku or in Tozan-ryu music

Yokoyama (same interview): "You had better think that originally there wasn't any vibrato in the classic repertoire."

He has a lengthy section of the interview where he talks about the use of various types of vibrato and the pitfalls that befall those who use too much of it or unconsciously. Great interview.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#63 2009-02-16 17:14:05

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

This may be dense of me, but I will go ahead anyways.  I understand that jiari are built for volume and projection and jinashi are typically softer and mellower, but isn't it also possible to get "an all in one jinashi" that has the desired mellowness and also good volume and projection? 

It seems to me that a jinashi is not, of necessity, required to be soft in volume.  I bet there are some jinashi that can shout on par with jiaris.  The kind of pronounced undercutting that Ken does seems to point in this direction, as it seems to substantially open up the volume and projection in his jinashi, thus leaving the main difference as one of tone.  I dunno.  I start to confuse myself a bit here.

Last edited by Lorka (2009-02-16 17:17:49)


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#64 2009-02-16 18:06:45

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1036
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

madoherty wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

Can someone verify this? Someone told me that the Yokoyama Honkyoku set release by Monty has Yokoyama saying in the preface that Honkyoku should be played on longer Jinashi instruments?

In the "About the Scores" section:
"..."In truth... the spirit of each honkyoku is best expressed on its own of length of flute.  This judgment is highly subjective, so we cannot prescribe a specific flute length for each song.  But in general, we can state that a flute length of 2.1 or greater will result in a better feeling for these pieces.  We recommend longer flutes."

I do not see anything about jinashi in particular.

-Michael

Hi Michael, Thanks for fact checking!

Tairaku wrote:

Pretty clear here. Contemporary Music Journal Volume 8 Part 2

Yokoyama; "The best shakuhachi for the classic repertoire is the one which retains the bamboo nodes, a really crude one that is cut our of a larger piece, with the mouthpiece just a simple slash across the bamboo at an angle and the insides just hollowed out. A good shakuhachi made simply like this is perfect for the classics."

He goes on to say that for the "contemporary" repertoire jiari is preferable mainly because of volume and projection.

Thanks for clearing that up Tairaku! So, Perhaps Chikuzen Sensei is correct in suggesting that these pieces be first learned on a modern 1.8 to train the ear for pitches and then let the student explore longer Jianshi flutes on their own?

Larry Tyrrell wrote:

...Let's face it. Yokoyama always used the best flute he could possibly use.  That works for me...

I have heard many experienced players say that not one flute will do every thing and that each will do at least one thing really well. It's up to the player to discover what that is.


Justin wrote:

So, I would never imagine him to recommend anyone to play bad jinashi. Bad in this case would mean jinashi with a sound he would not like, or giving results he would not like, such as poor pitch etc. Seeing as that is most jinashi, it is not a surprise to see that most of his students do not use jinashi.

Thanks for your thoughts Justin.

I guess I never realized how lucky I was to have studied Jinashi playing and making under the one student of Yokoyama Sensei that did play Jinashi well. Kinya started me on the 2.4 Jinashi. I played one I made, Kinya played one he made. I never felt it was any more difficult than studying on the 1.8 Jiari, which I was doing at the same time with Zenyoji Keisuki, Christopher Balsdel and Nakamura Akikazu. It was just different. Well, each teacher was an experience in itself regardless of the style of flute smile

Ben, Congratulations on your Academic shakuhachi goals. Hopefully this thread will offer you questions to explore until you graduate! smile

Last edited by Yungflutes (2009-02-16 18:13:04)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#65 2009-02-16 22:14:02

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 401
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Brian wrote:

There are also different KINDS of volume and projection. Some flutes have a sound that opens up and spreads over long distances even though they are mellow up close. Acoustics are far too elusive to make blanket statements.

I feel very much the same as Yokoyama seems to have. I love some jinashi but perfer only to play at home but not on concert stages, most of the time.
Understanding acoustics is a special work in progress for me. 15 years now! This is something I have to deal with in playing in various venues from giant halls made for western music to gala dinner parties of over 500 people. I generally am afraid to play jinashi without a mic but if I ask someone to stand at the back of a medium sized hall and I play a note at the lowest volume I can, they can usually hear it, even on jinashi. So, I don't think it's just one isolated note but how certain notes project (or not) and can be heard (or not) in relation to other notes at a certain place in the song. Whether it's jinashi or not. The Neptune flute I play Koku on (on Utube) is a jinashi; better yet, jimori as most of you know John's style. However, it's not how one note projects either but how they all do in a certain hall.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-02-16 22:38:00)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#66 2009-02-17 05:02:59

marek
Member
From: Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-03-02
Posts: 184
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Hi,

Regarding the volume, I remember Bobby McFerrin saying something which could be of some relevance here.

He was describing that as his daughter who plays in a rock band were preparing for a gig for 2000 people she was very worried for the music to be loud enough because so many people will be there.
However, he told her this was unnecessary if the music was good; that even without any amplification if she were to just flip her fingers at the right time everybody will pay attention and everybody will hear.

Cheers,

Marek


"what are you gawping at!?"
                                          Uchiyama Roshi
 
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#67 2009-02-17 08:41:40

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 917
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Contemporary Music Review vol 8.2
Editors: Nigel Osborne and Peter Nelson.
Issue Editors: Kondo Jo and Joaquim Bernitez.
AnInterview with YOKOYAMA Katsuya by Tokumaru Yoshihiko
[5] Page 70-71:

Tokumaru: Then going on to the next point, for our reader, let me say that both classic and contemporary repertoire exists in you in a compatible relationship. What I think should be clearly conveyed to the reader is the question of whether you use the same instrument repeatedly. I think I had better ask you to comment on this point in your own words. Actually there are some are some other items: Regarding the instrument, notation, if there are any new techniques that are used especially in contemporary music. These are all related to the structural aspects of music.

Yokoyama: Starting from... what?

Tokumaru: Starting from the instrument, please.

Yokoyama: Whether I use different instruments for different music? I try to, because when you perform you perform honkyoku repertoire, namely the repertoire proper to the shakuhachi, you don't need so much volume - you need an instrument that can cope with the space. In this sense you cannot perform without an instrument which can deal with today's conditions. An instrument that can only deal with the classic repertoire will not suffice. Of course you lose minute nuances generated by an instrument exclusively used for the classical repertoire. Next comes the question about the structural differences of these instruments, right? The best shakuhachi for the classical repertoire is the one which retains the bamboo nodes, a really crude one that is cut out of a larger piece, with the mouthpiece just a simple slash across the bamboo at an angle, and the insides just hollowed out. A good shakuhachi made simply like this is perfect for the classics.

Tokumaru: I see. How about one for the contemporary repertoire?

Yokoyama: For contemporary repertoire, you need one without nodes inside, made smooth with layers of varnish, for the tuning; like a jet nozzle, a core like a so-called venturi that has a narrow point midway and a widening further down.

Tokumaru:Is the internal shape made by means of varnish?

Yokoyama: Yes, We use such instruments. But this is a tendency that had already appeared in the nineteenth century.

etc etc

Now, let's all go and blow ro.
Amen


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#68 2009-02-17 09:07:50

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 401
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Kiku, thanks for the Takemitsu article. You reminded me with that post that I have a couple books of Takemitsu's that are out of print I haven't looked at in years. It puts in in the mind to check them out.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-02-17 09:09:31)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#69 2009-04-24 09:16:50

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Here's a ginger cat, let loose amongst the pigeons.....

In the interview excerpt quoted above, (BTW by Tokumaru, not Takemitsu), Yokoyama clearly states, even in as poor a translation as this, the following:

1) Yokoyama tries to use different (ie, not just jinashi) instruments depending on the space and the repertoire.
2) One can't perform without an instrument that can deal with today's conditions. (Now, what does that means?)
2) An instrument that can only deal with the classic repertoire will not suffice.
3) For contemporary repertoire, one needs...well, definitely not ji nashi flutes!!

In other words, Yokoyama is saying, forget using jinashi flutes for anything other than “the classices”, or solo honkyoku. Do not, whatever you do, use jinashi flutes if you’re going to be playing any type of music other than solo honkyoku! Not even with classical ensemble pieces, or sankyoku.

One, of course, can reject/ignore this admonition of Yokoyama’s.

An ideal jinashi flutes could theoretically do everything a flute with ji can do AND retain the "minute nuances", which Yokoyama implies might be lost in the application of ji. In any case, surely the trade off (gaining a few characteristics that are more suited to playing everything other than honkyoku; losing the "minute nuances") just isn't worth it. This entire forum topic is based on that belief.

But the logic works both ways. If Yokoyama is wrong about the total inappropriateness of jinashi flutes for any and every type of music other than honkyoku, then he is just as likely wrong in asserting that the best flutes for honkyoku are the crude, jinashi ones.

Take your pick, he’s either right in both assertions or he’s wrong in both.

Of course, he could be right about one thing and wrong about the other. Which one, though? And if this were the case, then perhaps this particular quote cannot be used in any meaningful, or at least logical discussion.

Also, when Yokoyama talks about the best shakuhachi for honkyoku ("the classics") being the crude, simple ones, he means just that. "Really crude", with a blowing edge that is "just a simple slash". Slashed. Not cut or sawed, but slashed! Everything simple. Quickly made. Crude. No subtle fine-tuning allowed.

Surely it would be crazy, even self-defeating, to pay someone to make this kind of flute as long as you have access to bamboo. As there are a number of good mail order bamboo suppliers around, do any of us have an excuse not to make our own flutes - if this is our instrument of choice?

I do wonder though, what he was going on about when he says it’s best to perform only on “instruments that can deal with today’s conditions”.  Hummm....

BTW, my two all time favourite flutes, on which I have played regularly since the early 1970s, both ‘retain the nodes’. Both are simple, one-piece bamboo, though not quite ‘slashed’. One doesn’t even have any root end. Alas, I did not make them.

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#70 2009-04-24 16:11:31

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 917
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Hi Riley.

Great post!
But as the jinashi forum moderator I would like to comment on one thing:

Riley Lee wrote:

An ideal jinashi flutes could theoretically do everything a flute with ji can do AND retain the "minute nuances", which Yokoyama implies might be lost in the application of ji. In any case, surely the trade off (gaining a few characteristics that are more suited to playing everything other than honkyoku; losing the "minute nuances") just isn't worth it. This entire forum topic is based on that belief.

This forum has no single belief it is based upon. This forum is only here to discuss jinashi shakuhachi - not to correct anyone else's opinion about them - as there is no one rigtht way anyway. It is a platform for discourse and there is no preconceived or correct opinions. All ideas and questions are welcome also 'the other way or logic'!
Thanks for your post! You raise some interesting questions. smile


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#71 2009-04-25 04:21:23

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Thanks for posting that Kiku, I feel sometimes there are tendencies of opinion which are ventilated as 'better', which confuses me sometimes. The tendencies I notice are:

longer is 'better' then shorter
Jinashi is better (more zenlike) then jiari
to study with a teacher is better then not to study with a teacher.

I believe believe the word better, while not being used directly by others, could better (heh) be 'different'.
or the word 'more suited' when having a certain goal in mind.

Jinashi could be more suited to playing honkyoku then jiari, something like this.

Maybe it is only my interpretation of things (which it always is) and maybe more people feel like this. And: I like discussing 'the diffences' and the 'more suited for' theme's of shakuhachi's very much!


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#72 2009-04-30 00:06:13

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

On the contrary, the jinashi section of the Forum is indeed based on a single belief. That single belief, to paraphrase the introductory ‘sticky’ to the section, is that interest in jinashi flutes is growing and, by implication, therefore they should be given a ‘forum’.

There is evidence to suggest that this might be so, at least amongst some shakuhachi circles. Also, there are many reasons why some people believe it should be so. One possible reason was mentioned in my previous missive. Nevertheless, a single belief or opinion is the basis of this section or topic.

Likewise, this entire forum is based on the single belief that the shakuhachi, in all of its manifestations, is worthy of discussion and an internet-based forum is one way to do it. As I share this belief, Brian and Ken have my sincere gratitude for creating and maintaining the Forum.

Still, it’s only our opinion. There are many English speaking shakuhachi players who know about this forum, yet do not read it. And we English speakers are still very much in the minority!

Kiku’s authoritative counsel as moderator implies that with my previous statements, I was trying to ”correct the opinion held by others”. I was not. Good luck to anyone who thinks she/he can do that! Please re-read my previous submission, which was either clarifying Yokoyama’s poorly translated opinions that were originally quoted by others in this forum, or stating my own.
--------------------------------------

Continuing on, Yokoyama is unequivocally talking in terms of "better".  Better yet, he doesn’t stop there; he talks about the "best". Of course what he says is his opinion. His entire interview is highly opinionated.

Many of us are interested in hearing Yokoyama’s opinions, because of who Yokoyama is. Furthermore, Yokoyama’s opinions frequently influence my own. But even Yokoyama’s opinions are just that, his opinions, even though we might applaud Yokoyama for forcefully stating his opinions as if they were fact.

Once we realise or remember that it’s almost all opinion, then we might feel more comfortable with and less confused by statements like Yokoyama’s, such as, "the BEST [my emphasis] shakuhachi for classical repertoire” is such and such type of flute.

Sometimes my confused and uncomfortable feelings can have the positive consequence of motivating me to think about, observe and question both my own opinions and those held by others. At the risk of sounding sententious, there is no confusion or discomfort inside the buried coffin.

BTW, here are my opinions:

"Longer is 'better' than shorter" – Strongly disagree as a general rule, even if we are only talking about honkyoku. It all depends.

Do any Kinko honkyoku become better when played on flutes longer than 1.8? Many honkyoku from other lineages also sound better on 1.8 flutes than on longer ones. Some honkyoku are best played on flutes even shorter than 1.8. "Azuma jishi" (dôkyoku) and "Asuka reibo" (Meian) are but two examples. Finally, many would agree that Yamaguchi and Yokoyama, for example, on a 1.8 are both better than all but a handful of players, whether on longer flutes or not.

"Jinashi is better (more zenlike) than jiari" – Strongly disagree, at least as a blanket statement or generalisation. It depends on so many other factors (and as for the "more zenlike", the Forum’s section devoted to discussing Zen was discontinued and archived for good reasons, so it’s probably not wise to explore that concept here...)

"To study with a teacher is better than not to study with a teacher" – Strongly agree. It would be extremely difficult to argue otherwise. To study or play shakuhachi without a teacher, on the other hand, is infinitely better than to not play at all.

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#73 2009-04-30 00:34:46

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3202
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Hey Riley,

I am playing for one of your students (Felicity) at Chado as we speak (or type?). She says hi.

The jinashi section of the forum was started for people to talk about jinashi. I also belong to a bass forum, Talkbass, and they have different sections for different kinds of basses i.e. upright, bass guitar, etc. We didn't start the jinashi section to make any blanket statements about jinashi being better than jiari. It's just a way of organizing posts about that particular topic so that people with that interest can find them easier.

Back to your earlier post I am one of the people who use jinashi flutes for music other than honkyoku, mainly rock, jazz, blues etc. I use those jinashi flutes because I can't get that sound or feel with jiari, particularly in the longer sizes. Because of the fact that jiari makers stick to conventional bore profiles I never find anything jiari that's of use to me beyond about 2.1. There are some nice 2.4 jiari but that's about it. I've never seen a jiari 2.7 for example that interested me. Too thin.

Ciao from Tasmania,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#74 2009-05-01 12:53:35

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1036
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Riley Lee wrote:

"To study with a teacher is better than not to study with a teacher" – Strongly agree. It would be extremely difficult to argue otherwise. To study or play shakuhachi without a teacher, on the other hand, is infinitely better than to not play at all.

Thank you Riley. This is the best thing I've read on the Forum to date.
Namaste, Perry

Last edited by Yungflutes (2009-05-01 12:54:00)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#75 2009-05-02 03:13:57

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

"I was my own teacher and pupil, and thanks to the efforts of both, they were not discontented with each other."

---Andres Segovia


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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