Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

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Tube of delight!

#1 2006-08-17 07:29:40

barokgs11
Member
From: istanbul
Registered: 2006-08-17
Posts: 26

Beginning with a long shakuhachi

I decided to learn this instrument after hearing Tilopa's "One Day in May"    http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/til … lue/03.m3u
Now, I am searching for an entry level, pvc shakuhachi, size 2.4 or something bigger.
I only found "Tai Hei Beginner Shakuhachi" on the web. Anyone had an experience with it? What else would you recommend?
Is it difficult to find methods, notations for sizes bigger than 1.8? Is there a huge difference between learning to play 1.8 and 2.4 at the beginning?

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#2 2006-08-17 08:40:08

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

barokgs11 wrote:

I decided to learn this instrument after hearing Tilopa's "One Day in May"    http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/til … lue/03.m3u
Now, I am searching for an entry level, pvc shakuhachi, size 2.4 or something bigger.
I only found "Tai Hei Beginner Shakuhachi" on the web. Anyone had an experience with it? What else would you recommend?
Is it difficult to find methods, notations for sizes bigger than 1.8? Is there a huge difference between learning to play 1.8 and 2.4 at the beginning?

I saw Tilo recently and he had some inexpensive practice flutes made from bamboo, why not just get one from him?  If you are seriously interested I can make an inquiry for you.

Otherwise Mujitsu Ken LaCosse and Perry Yung are good sources for bamboo practice grade long flutes. These would be more satisfying than PVC.

I don't know which Tai Hei flute you were looking at, but he's a good maker too.

Ease or otherwise of playing 2.4 vs. 1.8 depends on your size, arm length, fatness of fingers. It is traditional to learn how to play shakuhachi on 1.8. But sometimes I wonder if people struggle with long flutes later on because they get used to 1.8 and have trouble adapting. Thus if they started on 2.4 or 2.7 maybe they'd be better off.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2006-08-17 10:19:56

barokgs11
Member
From: istanbul
Registered: 2006-08-17
Posts: 26

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Tai Hei Beginner Shakuhachi: http://www.shakuhachi.com/Q-Models-Beginner.html
My real problem is this: I wasnt able to find a teacher in Istanbul. If there was a teacher, I would take introductory lessons, experiment with different shakuhachi, and then choose the size and type which suites to my fingers, arms and taste. Thats why I want to experiment with a cheap instrument at first.

I dont know if my fingers are long or fat, they just seem normal to me smile My height is 1.83 cm, I think my arms will be fine.
You may see the size of my fingers in cm here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/40833926@N00/217665054/

I would love to have a practice flute from Tilopa, may I contact him from this adress: http://www.tilopa.de/english_kontakt.htm

Thank you.

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#4 2006-08-17 10:44:06

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

barokgs11 wrote:

Tai Hei Beginner Shakuhachi: http://www.shakuhachi.com/Q-Models-Beginner.html
My real problem is this: I wasnt able to find a teacher in Istanbul. If there was a teacher, I would take introductory lessons, experiment with different shakuhachi, and then choose the size and type which suites to my fingers, arms and taste. Thats why I want to experiment with a cheap instrument at first.

I dont know if my fingers are long or fat, they just seem normal to me smile My height is 1.83 cm, I think my arms will be fine.
You may see the size of my fingers in cm here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/40833926@N00/217665054/

I would love to have a practice flute from Tilopa, may I contact him from this adress: http://www.tilopa.de/english_kontakt.htm

Thank you.

You could probably make your own PVC shakuhachi fairly easily. Here is a tutorial: http://www.fides.dti.ne.jp/~sogawa/englishpagepvc.html

It shows how to make them in different lengths. Once you have mastered PVC, you can experiment with bamboo.

Too bad you didn't post earlier, I was in Istanbul 2 months ago and could have gotten you started. Next time!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2006-08-17 13:41:35

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

barokgs11 wrote:

I dont know if my fingers are long or fat, they just seem normal to me smile My height is 1.83 cm, I think my arms will be fine.
You may see the size of my fingers in cm here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/40833926@N00/217665054/

Hi Barokgs11...  Go for it!

Re/ your size concerns...  Here's a data point... take it with a grain of salt...  I'm a relative beginner and I'm an inch or so shorter than you (5' 11" / 180 cm) but my hands may be slightly larger than yours based on your photo.  Nothing significant though, and at your height you'll definitely have the arm reach.  I started on a fat 2.4 and went up from there.  I did try a 1.8 but after seeing and fingering several other proportions my teacher laid out, I gravitated to a larger one.

Ergonomics, aesthetics, teacher, & budget all come into play, but the goal is practice, so think about a flute that will allow you to practice with satisfaction for hours on end.  Ahhh... smile

Be diligent with hand, finger, and wrist warmups before practice, especially on long flutes.

Welcome and good luck!

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#6 2006-08-17 15:10:01

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Ive been playing a 2.7 for some months now. I went to the makers house and had the holes marked for my hands before the bamboo had been drilled. If you have this option for whatever flute you buy, I think you will be better off.

A little trick I tried was sticking a blob of Femo on the back and moulding my hand to it before baking it and sticking it on with blutac. It worked well, and made it easier to hold the flute and relax, but now I am travelling so I decided to take it off because the flute is narrower to pack in a rucksack without a chunk of Femo stuck to it.

Ive also tried sticking on a strip of velcro, then adding layers of velcro in different areas until it became comfortable to hold. Velcro offered the advantage of changing the grip around until it was comfortable. To me, the fatness of the flute influences the way my ring finger sits in relation to the first hole, and can make a world of difference in comfort.

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#7 2006-08-17 19:10:48

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

I have heard that it is more difficult to control the pitch on a shorter flute than on a longer flute. Therefore, practicing on a 1.8 will better develop your pitch control, a desired skill for most players. Also, it's better practice for faster songs requiring more finger movement. Or so I've heard. Any thoughts?
Josh

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#8 2006-08-17 19:29:13

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

I have started on a 2.4 black bamboo 9 node flute a couple of months ago, and have just recently acquired a Yuu 1.8
I love the 2.4, it is MUCH Easier to blow than the Yuu, but the converse is that the Yuu seems to have much more tonal variation.
The tuning on the 2.4 seems to be easier, ie its harder to get Ro on the proper note (to tuner), again converse is that there is much more room to Meri on the Yuu.
I have recently seen a Tai Hei beginner PVC flute ina local shop. No disresepect to the maker, but if I had bought a piece of bamboo laminated pvc pipe with holes in it for £80 (approx $160 US) , site  unseen, I would not be anywhere as enthusiastic!
If you just like the sound, and are SHURE that you will not want to learn "properly", I'd recommend going with your guts on a long shakuhachi, if you cannnot go with a "recommended" maker there is always Ebay.
BUT otherwise the YUU has to be the way to go, I suspect it is easy to be seduced by the Low tone, rather harder to go for Great tone!

Best of Luck.
Ambi


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#9 2006-08-18 11:33:47

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Josh wrote:

I have heard that it is more difficult to control the pitch on a shorter flute than on a longer flute. Therefore, practicing on a 1.8 will better develop your pitch control, a desired skill for most players. Also, it's better practice for faster songs requiring more finger movement. Or so I've heard. Any thoughts?
Josh

Hi Josh,
My experience has been that when I'm having velocity problems, if I can work it out on a longer instrument, then the passage becomes much easier on a shorter instrument. Something to do with overcoming the inertia of the air column, I think. One can change aspect ratio, finger hole size, instrument length, and so on, but the air column doesn't scale, it is what it is.
HTH,
Bruce


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#10 2006-08-20 15:01:25

Anthony
Member
Registered: 2006-08-10
Posts: 23

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

I’m definitely not a pro, but thought I would offer my experience as a beginner, in the hopes that it will be helpful.

I have a 2.4 beginner model, my first flute, from Perry Yung (http://www.yungflutes.com) and I'm very happy with the flute and the added bonus of getting to know Perry – He has been a terrific resource.

Additionally, I just purchased a plastic 1.8 because I thought it would afford me great flexibility without worry because they are just about indestructible - while this flute was relatively inexpensive, it was not significantly less money than my beginner level 2.4.

However, after handling the plastic Shakuhachi like flute for 5 minutes, I boxed it up and sent it back. There was nothing wrong with this plastic flute, and in fact it was pretty cool for what it was - but for me, the natural aesthetics of bamboo is what makes a Shakuhachi a Shakuhachi.

Finally, I’m so glad I started with the 2.4.  After handling the 1.8 for 5 minutes, I could easily play “down” so to speak on a smaller flute, but playing “up”, to a larger flute would be more difficult for sure.  Also, the 2.4 now feels more comfortable and natural to me than the 1.8 and I love the deeper sound of the larger flute.

Thanks,

Anthony

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#11 2006-12-11 16:45:21

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

I actually started on one of Monty Levenson's Tai Hei 2.4 low-end flutes and really got into it. Within a month I'd already commissioned a longer piece by Perry Yung. It's a 3.3 (D#) and I'm also 183 cm tall with average-sized hands. At first, it was a real challenge and more difficult to play than a 2.5 of Perry's I also picked up. However, the depth of the 3.3 makes has only amplified my enthusiasm. I recently ordered some scores and accompanying recordings (see my entry for Japan World Music in the reviews section) and they were nice enough to pitch-shift their original 2.55 G# to match my 3.3 D#.

Zakarius


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#12 2007-04-24 21:19:46

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

I began playing on a 2.3 as far as I remember and I am 1.60. Beginning to play on long flutes are just fine!
By the way, I have been talking with a couple of students of mine in Greece about going down some time and teach - for example one week intensive or so. If you are interested to come, you could perhaps come along from Istanbul. I have no idea when it will be. I am in Japan until 26th September, so it is probably not going to be on this side of New Year, but... you never know.

Kiku


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#13 2007-04-25 06:26:45

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

I'm somewhat over 170cm tall and I haven't had much trouble with a 2.5 that Mujitsu made. The holes are not angled in any way so it's more or less the worst case scenario for such a flute. On the other hand, a friend of mine tried the same flute. She is about as tall as I am but is otherwise built more lightly as women usually are. Although she could somehow reach the holes she had no way to actually cover some of them. The middle hole was just impossible because no matter what she did she could only get about half of the hole covered. I believe Mujitsu makes the holes (and bores, too) somewhat larger than what you may see on some other flutes of the same size.

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#14 2007-04-25 08:19:01

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

amokrun wrote:

I believe Mujitsu makes the holes (and bores, too) somewhat larger than what you may see on some other flutes of the same size.

That's why they sound so good.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#15 2007-04-25 09:12:53

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

amokrun wrote:

I believe Mujitsu makes the holes (and bores, too) somewhat larger than what you may see on some other flutes of the same size.

That's why they sound so good.

Absolutely. Once you get used to the dimensions and can play freely it's hard to go back. I started a Taimu fund back when I got the 2.5 flute. Sadly such funds grow rather slowly when you are pretty much broke all the time. Last few months have been much better though so things are looking more and more promising.

As a side note, it bothers me to hell and back that just when my financial issues are starting to look a bit better but not quite good enough Ken comes up with this:

http://mujitsu.com/images/dark4204.JPG

Naturally it'll be sold by the time I get enough money together to buy it while still having some left for the mundane things such as buying food occasionally. Such is life.

In hopes of not derailing this whole thread, my experience as a beginner is that it shouldn't be that much more difficult to start with any particular size. As long as you can reach the holes and cover them fairly easily it shouldn't make much difference. I'm by no means good at this and I can generally do equally well on 1.8 and 2.5 as far as playing goes. For me, longer flutes tend to push me to play more slowly while shorter ones push me to play faster. I like slow but that's just me.

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#16 2007-04-25 10:33:29

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Just my 2 cents worth here.

I started off with the YUU, and a kind member of the forum sold me a 2.4 Jinashi Earth Model by Perry.  I found the 2.4 a little hard to play at first but once I got used to it I really started to love it.  The funny thing is, which I am sure lots of other people find as well, is that once I had been playing the 2.4 for awhile when I went back to the 1.8 I found it much easier to play (finger wise).  I think it was Tiraku who mentioned that playing the long flutes makes playing the smaller ones easier.  That has been my experience thus far.  I saw a post somewhere else about breathing Jinashi vs Jiari.  I dont know much really, but I do find that after a practice on the Jinashi I find it hard to make clear notes on the Jiari (the finger positions are much easier though).  I guess your body takes time to adjust to different bore-dynamics and styles of play associated with different kinds of shakuhachi.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#17 2007-04-25 16:40:30

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

barokgs11 wrote:

Is it difficult to find methods, notations for sizes bigger than 1.8?

Just to address this, the notation for all sizes is the same. The pitches are related to the holes, not the actual pitch of the notes.

Did I explain that correctly? Ro is Ro on any flute, be it a 1.8 or a 2.7. It's the player that adapts, and it's not really adapting much. It's still the same fingering, more or less.

Good luck to you!

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#18 2007-04-25 17:29:11

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

amokrun wrote:

Although she could somehow reach the holes she had no way to actually cover some of them. The middle hole was just impossible because no matter what she did she could only get about half of the hole covered.

Is she trying to cover the hole with the tip of her finger or some part in the middle? The 2.2 I got from Perry Yung has holes that are kind of large and even though I can obviously reach the holes since I'm not using my fingertips to cover them, I still find it somewhat difficult to cover the holes because of the width of my fingers. I can cover them, but sometimes miss and don't get them covered immediately. I can see where someone with smaller hands and finger diameter might not be able to cover them at all. Using the fingertips could probably help with this because they're a little wider and the fleshy portion flattens out more when smushed, but finding a comfortable hand position would be difficult that way. In fact, in the beginning when I got frustrated with not being able to cover the holes well enough sometimes I resorted to playing with the fingertips, but I couldn't keep that up for very long because I experienced too much discomfort.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#19 2007-04-25 18:09:02

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

amokrun wrote:

I believe Mujitsu makes the holes (and bores, too) somewhat larger than what you may see on some other flutes of the same size.

That's why they sound so good.

And fantastic shakuhachi for blues on top of it all. I have had old jiari and old jinashi and I've played on modern flutes, but none can handle a blues scale like one of Ken's. Why is that?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#20 2007-04-25 19:31:12

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

radi0gnome wrote:

Is she trying to cover the hole with the tip of her finger or some part in the middle?

It largely didn't matter, actually. The only way she could manage to get even majority of the hole covered involved such strange arm twisting that it would not be possible if you had to actually cover the other two holes as well. This particular flute has a fairly large third hole - some flutes I've seen in pictures actually had a fairly small third hole in comparison. Personally I usually use the tip of my pinky for that hole. With some stretching first I can also play it with the middle part of my ring finger but I find it slower to play like that.

From my experiences with letting people try the 2.5, people who have problems fall into two categories. First you have those who have too small fingers to actually cover the holes and then you have those who can't stretch their upper hand enough to cover both the thumb hole and the third hole at once. Angled holes fix the second issue for the most part unless we are talking about something really huge. Like said, this flute is the worst case scenario because the holes are in a perfectly straight line. As far as hole sizes go, I'm not entire sure if there is a solution short of playing with something stuck to your fingers or having gloves on. Either way, I believe that the results are worth the effort of finding a flute that fits your anatomy.

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#21 2007-04-25 19:55:15

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Chris Moran wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

amokrun wrote:

I believe Mujitsu makes the holes (and bores, too) somewhat larger than what you may see on some other flutes of the same size.

That's why they sound so good.

And fantastic shakuhachi for blues on top of it all. I have had old jiari and old jinashi and I've played on modern flutes, but none can handle a blues scale like one of Ken's. Why is that?

Because "You gots to live the blues" and Ken has the Mujitsu Blues.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#22 2007-04-25 21:27:08

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

If the finger won't go to the hole, one must bring the hole to the finger.  Remember, it's a relatively simple procedure for a maker to move a hole.  It's even quite doable yourself after you've been taught once.  (Sorry, the assumption here is that distance down the main axis is preserved but that any offset around that circumference circle is fair game -- that still might not be enough for some, but it's worth checking.)

The strain of fingers stretched too far and a tenser position overall, bearing the weight of a longer flute, exposes us to potential pain and damage -- so make your flute fit well and always warm up!

Okay, maybe moving a hole isn't something one would do to a $15K museum-worthy flute but making our daily-played flutes more comfortable is very valuable in itself.

-Darren.

Last edited by dstone (2007-04-25 21:42:29)


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#23 2007-04-25 22:50:00

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

And there aren't really a lot of instruments that are as adaptable as the shakuhachi, physically and tone-wise.

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#24 2007-04-25 23:04:25

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

dstone wrote:

If the finger won't go to the hole, one must bring the hole to the finger.  Remember, it's a relatively simple procedure for a maker to move a hole.  It's even quite doable yourself after you've been taught once.  (Sorry, the assumption here is that distance down the main axis is preserved but that any offset around that circumference circle is fair game -- that still might not be enough for some, but it's worth checking.)

The strain of fingers stretched too far and a tenser position overall, bearing the weight of a longer flute, exposes us to potential pain and damage -- so make your flute fit well and always warm up!

Okay, maybe moving a hole isn't something one would do to a $15K museum-worthy flute but making our daily-played flutes more comfortable is very valuable in itself.

-Darren.

The solution to playing long flutes and being able to reach the holes is to use the fourth finger on the left hand to finger three hole and also using the pads of the fingers rather than the tips to cover the holes. You can see this demonstrated just by looking at my profile pic. However if your fingers are not fat enough and the hole is too big then there's nothing you can do and you must use flutes with small holes. Kiku for example can reach the holes on some of my flutes but not cover them.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#25 2007-04-26 00:27:18

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Beginning with a long shakuhachi

Good advice,
You have LONG arms. What's the size of the flute in the picture?

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