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Tube of delight!

#1 2006-08-20 04:16:16

Anthony
Member
Registered: 2006-08-10
Posts: 23

How wrong would it be...

Yes, how wrong would it be to use the pinky finger on my left hand to cover hole #3? smile

I have been playing for about a week on a 2.4 Shakuhachi and find it really challenging playing re/tsu/ro because of finger reach, even without using my finger tips.   But today, I decided to use my pinky finger to close hole#3, while using both my middle finger and ring finger to hold on.  This helped me immediately I was able to blow re/tsu/ro, without issue. 

Is this perversion just too much – Should I not develop this bad habit any further (which may be hard), or is this a good example of adaptation and flexibility?   smile

Interestingly enough, before I knew the correct finger positions, it seemed appropriate to use the pinky finger to cover hole #3 on this flute. 

Finally, I have to say, its a joy to finally get some decent sound out of re/tsu/ro - what have I done!

As always, your input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks so much,

Anthony

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#2 2006-08-20 06:56:34

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: How wrong would it be...

It's perfectly acceptable.  Check out Perry Yung's tips:

http://www.yungflutes.com/html_pages/playing_page.html


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#3 2006-08-20 09:47:23

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: How wrong would it be...

That's how I play on long flutes. Not only is it acceptable, it's preferable (IMHO). Because it puts much less strain on your wrist. You are less at risk of tendonitits/repetitive stress disorder. The idea of playing with the third finger is a carry over from 1.8 technique. They are two different instruments just as cello is different from violin or baritone sax is different from alto. It's a mistake to compare long and short flutes too much. Pinky can be developed just like any other finger, by using it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#4 2006-08-20 13:03:18

Anthony
Member
Registered: 2006-08-10
Posts: 23

Re: How wrong would it be...

This is outstanding news.

The interesting thing is, I had looked at Perry's page on this, but didn't see that he had his pinky working that third hole - I am simply thrilled - my Shakuahci world just opened up big time. 

Thanks so much!

Anthony

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#5 2006-08-20 20:55:37

evan kubota
Member
Registered: 2006-04-10
Posts: 136

Re: How wrong would it be...

I do this sometimes. On a 2.8 it's definitely more comfortable, but I can play either way without problems.

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#6 2007-06-21 06:58:48

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: How wrong would it be...

Interesting.  When I started making HUGE flutes back in the 70's I just naturally went to the little finger on the third hole.  Even  when I recorded Illuminated From Within in '96 - you can see right there in the pictures - I was in the comfort zone, using the little finger.  Then I ordered The Mysterious Sound of the Japanese Bamboo Flute when it was offered by Meijiro, and they show a picture of Watazumi in playing position with each flute he played for each piece.  HOLY CROW!  Even on the 103cm hochiku he was stretching that ring finger down to the third hole.  "Yikes," said I!  "I think I better clean up my act!"

So, that's what I've done.  I have a 3.0 I hardly even play any more because of this quest for purity of technique.  Okay, Brian - I'll loosen up.  It's funny how we get ideas about rigidity.  It makes total Zen/Dao sense to just do what comes naturally, yet somehow we tend to get all rigid. 

Ahhh...  back to the comfort zone.  Back to the natural easy flowing Dao.  Breathe into fingers.  Purity of mind... relaxed.

One thing I suspect is that Watazumi's 103cm hochiku had better thumb-hole placement than my flutes.

It would be interesting to hear Watazumi chime in on this conversation... "You use pinky - I break flute over head!"

Last edited by Harazda (2007-06-21 07:10:39)

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#7 2007-06-21 10:09:18

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: How wrong would it be...

Hello All-
I have seen Okuda Atsuya and his student Hiroyuki Kodama play up to 3.4+ using the ring finger without any problem. Personally, I prefer this style myself. It never crossed my mind to use the pinky finger. It could be because of those same photos of Watazumido using his ring finger and also my lessons with Okuda and Kodama. Sometimes when you see people doing something with ease that you can't do, you realize it is possible and then you just do it. At least that is what happened in my case.

It is quite a challenge to play long(2.9+) using the ring finger but I actually enjoy the challenge. It might take months, even years to be comfortable but it can be done. So I guess it depends how in a hurry you are. It is amazing how adaptable the body(hands and fingers in this case) actually is. Sometimes I do have problems with other makers shakuhachi when I first pick them up because their hole placement might be different than I am used to, but I do know that if I spent any time with different bamboo that I can eventually play it comfortably.
-Prem

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#8 2007-06-21 10:22:55

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: How wrong would it be...

Those pictures of Kodama playing long flutes are a gas!

I don't know why it would be an issue which finger you use or even if you want to use your toes as Watazumi used to do.

People should do whatever is comfortable for them. My hand position is very unorthodox even on 1.8. John Singer, who is about as traditional as it gets, told me that's OK, if my hands want to go into that position it must be for a reason.

Prem, do you know if there is the idea in Japan that using the pinky for that is "wrong"? Because I have shown that to a lot of people who now have adopted it. Maybe I should surrender to the "Shakuhachi Police" for disorderly conduct. tongue


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#9 2007-06-21 10:41:27

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: How wrong would it be...

Now hold on a minute!  I thought we were off the hook!  Ha ha!

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#10 2007-06-21 11:01:10

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: How wrong would it be...

Hello Brian-
I never said it was wrong! Of course not! I also strongly believe that anyone can do whatever they want in this regard. I was even thinking of trying it myself. I just said it never passed my mind to do it because the people I learned from did not do it. I guess I was merely affirming that it can be done, comfortably too, it just takes more effort and time. Believe me when I say I do not "uphold" any traditional view of shakuhachi. However, (and I think you will agree with me on this point) I totally appreciate traditional shakuhachi and what I have learned from it.

As far as Japan is concerned, hardly anyone plays long shakuhachi, so I do not think that there is any norm of how it is played. So, I do not think there is any right or wrong in this issue. 
-Prem

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#11 2007-06-21 11:10:41

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: How wrong would it be...

-Prem wrote:

Hello Brian-
I never said it was wrong! Of course not! I also strongly believe that anyone can do whatever they want in this regard. I was even thinking of trying it myself. I just said it never passed my mind to do it because the people I learned from did not do it. I guess I was merely affirming that it can be done, comfortably too, it just takes more effort and time. Believe me when I say I do not "uphold" any traditional view of shakuhachi. However, (and I think you will agree with me on this point) I totally appreciate traditional shakuhachi and what I have learned from it.

As far as Japan is concerned, hardly anyone plays long shakuhachi, so I do not think that there is any norm of how it is played. So, I do not think there is any right or wrong in this issue. 
-Prem

I didn't think you were implying that it was wrong, I was just wondering if the Japanese think so. Your last paragraph answers that. Perry Yung told me something similar. He said very few of the people he met in Japan could even begin to play his longer flutes, including Shihans and graduates of Geidai. Everybody wants to play 1.8. I recently worked with a very good koto player in Tasmania. I showed her my Taimu 3.0. She just gasped and said,"Not available in Japan."  Probably long flutes have a relatively higher profile in the West as the result of some prominent players than in Japan. I like it!!!!!!!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2007-06-21 12:20:35

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: How wrong would it be...

Tairaku wrote:

Probably long flutes have a relatively higher profile in the West as the result of some prominent players than in Japan. I like it!!!!!!!

I LIKE IT TOO!!!!!

But seriously, I think that it is truly wonderful that people in the US(I do not know about Europe) are going a very unique direction with shakuhachi. It fascinates me that it seems almost EVERY shakuhachi newbie immediately gravitates towards the longer, rawer and bigger Bamboo. There is something so appealing about it! Then of course once they hear of Watazumi they are hooked. It seems that the Watazumi-myth(people-do NOT believe all the stuff you read or hear, He was a performance artist for GOD's sake!) really touches on the Westerner's romanticized version of "ZEN", "Spiritual"(what does this word mean to people? and since when has both these words become adjectives?) and anything else they seem to feel that they are lacking.

It is interesting because it seems that when I started playing shakuhachi the teachers I encountered in the West were those that TOTALLY upheld some pretty "right/wrong" opinions regarding shakuhachi. It seemed that even though each teacher was proclaiming their "open view" they were equally denouncing anyone else's view. I am very glad that I never bought into anyone's opinions in this regard. Even though at times it was often very difficult to gather the "gems" from the rocks. I was/am also smitten with Watazumi and I also wanted that experience. There was and is definitely some serious juice in that guy's playing. It was also very interesting that the "Do kyoku" players were often the worst in this regard. On one side they were claiming the mantle to the whole Watazumido thang and on the other hand telling me that I need this "super expensive"(and I do mean SUPER EXPENSIVE) modern shakuhachi to do it. Luckily, I had enough sense/will to realize the humor in this (although difficult at times). It was not until I met Kodama that I realized that "YES" people do play the RAW, BIG Hotchiku. I was at the point of giving up playing until I met Kodama. It kind of goes along with my previous post in which once you see that it is possible everything kind of comes together.

NOWADAYS...people are extremely lucky(myself included) to have this forum (THANKS! Ken and Brian). There is a TRUE wealth of information on a daily basis in this forum. I also have to say that it is wonderful that people have such diverse experience and opinions regarding shakuhachi. Each free to express themselves. I also feel that this forum in particular and people like Ken and Brian are doing a great deal to create what it means to play shakuhachi in the US. I love that people are not afraid to change it up a bit. However, personally, I gravitate towards those players that have really invested a lot into studying the traditional(whatever that means) forms before they start changing it up. There is a huge wealth of experience in this tradition. TRULY!!! Sometimes it seems like a huge wall to climb but it is definitely worth the energy. To me that is why Watazumi is so great, He FULLY studied/embraced the tradition(Myoan/FUKE to be exact), yet revolutionized the way people see/play shakuhachi today. Perhaps the true understanding of Watazumi's experience is more fully understood in the West than in Japan. I feel that Watazumido's playing is more akin to the playing of todays FREE IMPROVISERs than yesterday's traditional players. I LOVE IT!!! For me, because I was so lucky to live in Chicago and be so influenced by some of the great improvisers of our time (such as Hamid Drake and Fred Anderson) I was able to incorporate that attitude into my understanding of shakuhachi.

Actually, it was kind of interesting because when I was in Japan last year a lot of what I thought shakuhachi was fell away. Through the graciousness of Barry Weiss, I was able to meet some wonderful shakuhachi people including his current teacher Suiko Takahashi(wonderful human being and player/maker). The people I met in Japan were very relaxed in their view of shakuhachi and often played shakuhachi of their own making. Of course this is the style I am most attracted to so I am sure that influenced my experience. TRULY, it can be as simple as a piece of bamboo!!

-Prem

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#13 2007-06-21 19:19:39

Nyogetsu
Kyu Dan Dai Shihan
From: NYC
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 259
Website

Re: How wrong would it be...

Hi All,

I (of short stubby-handed genes) always use my pinky(s) on flutes longer then 2.5.
On flutes that are over 2.8, I find it very desirable. I agree with the comment that the Japanese generally do not play flutes this long. There are exceptions to this however. I played in a concert in the Kyoto-Eki cube that featured players from 12 different Shakuhachi schools - 2 years ago. The 3 players of Kikusui-Ryu played a Shakuhachi made of Pawlonia Wood (Ihave one as well) that were 3.1 in length. Certainly historically though, a 2.0 was about as long as you would need.

As I discovered in my previous incarnation as a Hippie Rock Guitarist in the 60's (My Band made3 LPs, but we generally starved!), short fingers are not an advantage to most instruments, but with practice and ingenuity, almost any hardship can be overcome!

By the way, Prem, give my regards to Barry Weiss.
He was my first student when I began teaching 33 years ago!

Ronnie


The magic's in the music and the music's in me...
"Do you believe in Magic"- The Lovin' Spoonful

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#14 2007-06-21 19:58:33

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: How wrong would it be...

Nyogetsu wrote:

By the way, Prem, give my regards to Barry Weiss.
He was my first student when I began teaching 33 years ago!

Hello Ronnie-
I will definitely give your regards to Barry as he will be visiting Oakland/Berkeley next week!

Also, Ronnie, I am curious about the Pawlonia wood shakuhachi. I have read about them and Kikusui. Are they made in 2 halves and then glued together? Any chance of posting a picture?

Thanks
-Prem

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#15 2007-06-21 21:16:14

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: How wrong would it be...

Brian,
Here in Japan, there is a certain amount of gravity accumulated in standardization.  Within that realm, there exists flexibility on the micro level, but most things fall within the borders of expectation and repeated practice.  There are a few that venture outside the walls, and they tend to muster their own gravity, but generally that is overshadowed by the mainstream giants.  Mainstream ensemble shakuhachi playing focused on the 1.8 probably for reasons of practicality.  Showmanship was rarely what was behind public playing and was often looked down upon.  You may have heard of the addage often repeated here in Japan, ' the nail that stands up gets hammered down'.  In my understanding, these aspects of Japanese culture are good reasons why there isn't a strong movement behind long shakuhachi playing here.
In my 20 year experience of public playing here in south-western Japan, I am the only person who has played a 2.8 in an ensemble setting publically.  That's not to say that it isn't done elsewhere, but it's rare.  When I go out every year with my sensei and his father Tsurugi Kyomudo to dig bamboo, we usually take a few pieces longer than 2.4 for my own use.  They never think of selling them.  There just isn't the market.
Like Prem, I'm also very interested in the turn of direction that shakuhachi practice has taken outside of Japan.  I love the traditions and am eternally grateful to my sensei for imparting his knowledge and insights in that respect, but I'm also indebted to players and teachers such as yourself for having the courage to move in fresh ways.
Jeff


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#16 2007-06-21 23:14:42

Nyogetsu
Kyu Dan Dai Shihan
From: NYC
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 259
Website

Re: How wrong would it be...

Hi Prem,

"Also, Ronnie, I am curious about the Pawlonia wood shakuhachi. I have read about them and Kikusui. Are they made in 2 halves and then glued together? Any chance of posting a picture?"

Yes they are made in 2 halves, but look amazing and are incredibly "light".
I will work on the photo!

Ronnie


The magic's in the music and the music's in me...
"Do you believe in Magic"- The Lovin' Spoonful

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#17 2007-06-22 00:18:36

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: How wrong would it be...

Would it be at all correct to assume that in Japan, most players are interested not in honkyoku, but in minyo, melodic music, or music that can be played with other traditional instruments for entertainment? Tozan being the biggest ryuha might lend itself to this idea. My impression is that many (perhaps most) players in Japan want to play for entertainment, enjoyment, and that natsukashii feeling.

The music that we are exposed to as Westerners might have something to do with it as well. Are we as interested in hearing old Okinawa minyo as we are in hearing honkyoku, which has that sound that we might better associate with older aspects of Japanese culture that intrigue us more, such as samurai, Zen, throwing stars, etc?

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#18 2007-06-22 05:28:39

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: How wrong would it be...

If I was to take the town where I live, Kochi, as a microcosm of shakuhachi culture, then I'd say that your assumption sounds basically correct in that the majority of players in town here are Tozan ryu and for the most part they are playing shinkyoku and gendaikyoku more than other types of music, though they do have what they call Tozan honkyoku, which I assume are pieces which were written by Nakao Tozan.  Then again, there is the occasional Tozan player who is interested in learning traditional honkyoku pieces, and as an example of that, there are a number of Tozan players who attend the honkyoku workshops sponsored twice a year in Okayama prefecture by Yokoyama Katsuya and his various deshi, including Kakizakai and Furuya senseis.   In regard to the Kinko playing minority in my town of approximatley 300,000 people (let's say 20 players out of 100), most of them spend more time playing gaikyoku than honkyoku but many of them do consistently work on honkyoku pieces and several are also interested in learning other styles of honkyoku, such as Kimpu ryu.  Almost all are players of jiari flutes.  There are several players that play minyo tunes with the local minyo association but Kochi, unlike some other areas of Japan, e.g. Tohoku, does not have a strong tradition of minyo shakuhachi playing.  It's hard to generalize, but I'd say that in the West a much higher percentage of players tend to stress the association between shakuhachi and Zen.  Not to say that awareness of that aspect doesn't exist in Japan but it is rarely emphasized or verbalized.  Some Japanese players have asked me what it is that attracts Westerners to the shakuhachi and when I mention its associations with Zen I sometimes get a quizzical look or an expression of amusement, as if to say, "Zen, really? Foreigners hold strange ideas about Japan..."

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#19 2007-06-22 08:07:03

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: How wrong would it be...

I would wonder if these same Japanese players would also think that Disney World is a cool place to go.  Personally speaking, I would consider a trip to Disney World a big drag, for the very same reasons I associate shakuhachi with Zen.  Zen is a path to What Is; Disney World, to me, represents the superhighway to what is not!

Unlike many on this forum, I have not been to Japan, but - somehow - I think there are far more Westerners who are fed up with plasticity and have been moving past that since the late 1960's, whereas the Japanese seem to adore that which is plastic.  Here, I equate plasticity with the constant desire to be entertained. 

As soon as the Japanese give up their search for meaning in hollow entertainment, then they'll realize what they've been overlooking their entire lives: the Zen that gives their culture meaning.  This may just be my naive opinion; please correct me if I'm wrong!

...sorry to perpetuate the derailment of this thread, which is supposed to be about fingering, but I just had to throw in my two yen about the meaning of shakuhachi as a life path.

Chris

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#20 2007-06-22 16:11:03

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: How wrong would it be...

-Prem wrote:

I love that people are not afraid to change it up a bit. However, personally, I gravitate towards those players that have really invested a lot into studying the traditional(whatever that means) forms before they start changing it up. There is a huge wealth of experience in this tradition. TRULY!!! Sometimes it seems like a huge wall to climb but it is definitely worth the energy.

-Prem

Well said Prem.

Witnessing the development of jinashi shakuhachi in the west is very exciting. It seems a natural and inevitable development in a culture that encourages individuality. Of course there are pros and cons to this. The benefit of the resurgence of jinashi shakuhachi is that it compliments modern jiari shakuhachi by providing more ways to approach and appreciate the instrument. That's good news for everyone interested in shakuhachi. Luckily, for all of us, bamboo gets a kick out of jumping under the fence and into the neighbors yard!

Ken

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#21 2007-06-25 04:54:55

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: How wrong would it be...

Yes, the jinashi boom in the West is quite interesting; here in Shikoku I was never exposed to jinashi so I'll have to find myself a jinashi flute sometime in the near future.  Harazda asked about shakuhachi players and Disneyland; I  don't know if one can really pigeonhole shakuhachi players that easily but in modern Japan the artificial environment, whether Disneyland or Huis Ten Bosch (Dutch Village), whatever, is still a very popular thing, along with the constant building of highways, bridges, and tunnels to nowhere (read Alex Kerr's book Dogs and Demons for some insights on that) and the worship of the latest in technology.  I agree that Zen helped lay the foundation for much that is admirable in Japanese culture but in Japan today I think it has been relegated to the fringes, although shakuhachi players who play honkyoku obviously know of the komuso tradition, and a few of them are quite absorbed in it.  I don't imagine that the Japanese have any monopoly on searching for meaning in hollow entertainment although there is probably a lower percentage of Japanese who are searching for answers within specific spiritual or religious traditions than in some other cultures.  Perhaps the West will end up reintroducing Zen and new shakuhachi traditions into Japan several centuries from now...

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2007-06-25 06:44:38)

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