Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Tairaku said  "Musical historians think the shakuhachi is the evolutionary dead end in a line that began with the ney and moved eastwards."  I'm glad to hear that as I'm not a musical historian but I did write an article for a local publication in 2003 comparing the shakuhachi and the ney and proposed that theory but not with any really solid evidence... to quote..."It is interesting to speculate as to whether it is possible that the ney could have made the journey across Central Asia to China and then to Japan, becoming the Japanese shakuhachi.  According to Stephan Blum, "Five of the ten court orchestras of the T'ang dynasty (618-907) bore the names of Central Asian oases and city states -- Turfan, Kucha, Kashgar, Samarkand, and Bukhara." (Sadie, New Grove Dictionary, ed. vol. 5, p. 369).  Today the ney is found from North Africa to Iran and the Caucasus, and it is not unthinkable that it could have been carried across Central Asia to end up being an instrument at the Chinese court.  Current scholarship traces the origin of the shakuhachi back to a notched Chinese flute called the chiba.  Shakuhachi is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese ideogram for chiba, where chi is equivalent to shaku, and ba to hachi (Sadie, ed., volume 12, p. 832).  It is not impossible that the chiba could have been the modification of a ney that had been carried across Central Asia by travelers journeying the Silk Road"  p. 12,
from "The Shakuhachi and the Ney: A Comparison of Two Flutes from the Far Reaches of Asia" (published in Research Reports of Kochi Medical School, 2003).   In a nutshell, some of the similarities between the flutes and their traditions are as follows...(of course there are many differences as well, and there are various different types of ney so it is easy to pick and choose those flutes that have some similarity with shakuhachi).  One difference of course is that the shakuhachi is made from a "real" bamboo while the ney was originally made from a yellow cane reed called Arundo Donax, a pseudo bamboo which resembles "real" bamboos in appearance (and which is also a source for saxophone and clarient reeds, another woodwind connection).  The length of the nay varies according to the region in which it is found; both shakuhachi and nay flutes have a similar length range.   Both instruments have reputations as very difficult instruments to learn to play; there is a well known saying associated with shakuhachi, "kubi furi sannen" (to shake the head three years) which is used to indicated the difficulty connected with playing the instrument, and also, a lesser known second part to that saying, "koro haichi-nen" -- to do the koro technique (a finger tremelo) eight years.  As for the ney, according to Anthony Baines (The Oxford Companion to Musical Instruments) "to most Europeans the nay is the most difficult of all flutes to sound."  (I tried playing a ney at the NY Shakuhachi festival a couple of years ago but never could get a sound out of it; I later bought one but I still haven't been able to get a sound out of it!  Any advice, Brian?)  The ney has various legends associated with its invention, and it is generally believed that the komuso sect gave the shakuhachi a "legendary" history.  There are some neys, such as the Arabic standard nay, or nay Dukah, which have D as the fundamental note, which is the base note for the 1.8 standard shakuhachi.  The Persian ney is referred to as the ney haftband, or seven band ney which corresponds to the seven nodes of the standard shakuhachi.  Ney players or Neyzen have a saying "one breath, one life" while shakuhachi players have the saying "Ichion Jobutsu," or "enlightenment in one sound."  For both instruments the term "blowing," as in "blowing ney" or "blowing shakuhachi" generally appears to be more commonly used than the terms "playing ney," or "playing shakuhachi." Some neys get the signature of their maker burned into the flute or carved in and filled with ink, somewhat similar to the hanko or name seal put on the flutes in Japan.  Both instruments have distinct traditions of ensemble and solo music, and both shakuhachi and ney were played with a lute and a zither in their respective culture's classical music traditions (in the case of the ney, together with oud and a plucked trapezium box zither.  One key difference in the classical ensemble traditions of both instruments is that the nay was the main melodic instrument in the ensemble pieces in Iran, but the koto and shamisen played the main melody in the Japanese ensemble pieces).   In  its solo tradition, the nay was associated with a particular religious sect, that of the Mevlevi Ayin, its followers known as "whirling dervishes" in the West, and the whirling ceremony, where the ney was used as a solo instrument (but accompanied by percussion) was a driving force in the sufi's search for truth, just as the honkyoku piece were associated with a specific religious group the komuso, and blowing the flute, suizen, was considered an aid to enlightenment.  Both komuso and Mevlevi sect members begged for alms and received external signs of their status, the tengai or basket hat for the komuso, and a rough cloak for the Mevlevi sect members.   The Mevlevi Sufi order received strong support and political influence from the Ottoman Empire just as the Edo era komuso were given certain privelages (in exchange for favors like spying for the government) by the Edo ear Shogunate.  The members of the Sufi order were told to avoid secular tunes just as the komuso were, and strict punishments were instituted for those who broke the rules (though these restrictions were often flaunted).  Both sects eventually ran into trouble with the authorities and were outlawed, the komuso Fuke sect at the beginning of the Meiji Period (1869-1912), and the Mevlevi sect in 1925, seven years after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Thanks...This was a good information about the history of Shakuhachi....I enjoyed reading both posts; by Tairaku and by my teacher....

Many thanks for your replies. I am so delighted by them so I want to enlarge the topic. Do you play any other "gutsy flute" regularly? What are the differences and similariries of that flute with shakuhachi?

"There are many sweet and gentle flutes in the world, but there are those that are highly capable of "gutsy" sounds. Raspy sounds, breathy sounds, growly, howly sounds and mixed right in with the sweet tones to give a great expressive range. This range tends to give the flutes greater capacity as solo instruments."
http://eek.ca/FlutesWithGuts.shtml

The taegum is definitely a "gutsy flute."  I picked up one in Pusan over a decade ago and mine has a small, detachable metal plate covering the hole with the membrane which makes for a really large buzz, reminding me a bit of a shawm.  The flute I have is considerably larger in diameter than a Chinese dzi, though of similar length, and is thick walled, but not quite as thick walled as most madake shakuhachi.  It's a side blown flute and as Perry mentioned the blowing aperture is quite large.  I can get a tune out of the taegum but it took a little while to get used to the size of the embouchure.  Sounds on my Turkish ney continue to elude me.  I picked up a dzi in Shanghai from a master of the instrument and was even given a book of notation but haven't really pursued it (or the study of Chinese which would also be helpful in reading the book!).  I think that for the average person, proficiency on dzi, nay, or taegum would require the kind of practice time that most of us on this forum are putting in on (or would like to devote to) shakuhachi in order to be able to deal with the idiosyncracies of each instrument.  I don't mean to deter the talented multi-instrumentalist, of course...  I do try to play the tin whistle now and again; it might not be a 'gutsy' flute but it has its charms and there is no difficulty with making a sound on it! (though proficiency is another matter altogether).

Neyzen Hasan wrote:

I'll post a few more links to fine Turkish ney performance listening, especially the longer flutes.

Karl

Online audio sample of Shah ney, performed by Suleyman Erguner, generally accepted as the leading Turkish Ney player today:
http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/makam/Suleyman.html

Niyazi Sayin performs the audio sample in the link I gave in my previous posting.  Niyazi was accepted by many as the leading Turkish ney player of the last third of the 20th century.  Others preferred the style of Akagündüz Kutbay.  The link cited in barokgs11
2006-08-20 above has many ney improvisation audio files by Sayin, Kutbay, and others:
http://www.neyzen.com/neymetodu_001.htm

Daniel Ryudo asks for advice on learning to play the Turkish ney.  The instructions for holding and blowing the Turkish ney on the Ney Method link cited immediately above are detailed, clear, and correct.  These instructions and the audio files are all you need.

Karl

Does anyone know of a website that sells decent neys?

philthefluter wrote:

Does anyone know of a website that sells decent neys?

I suggest sending an email to Karl (Neyzen Hasan, just above). He's likely to know of Ney sources.

eB

Last edited by edosan (2007-01-07 17:06:32)

Folk Music Center in Claremont, California (near Pomona) has had very good quality Persian ney -- stamped/signed brought over by a very good ney player ("Ben"). Ask for Joel or Rufie.

http://www.folkmusiccenter.com/ (909) 624-2928

Harry wrote:

Sorry for bringing up this old thread, but I just found it on a search.

Phillip, in the absence of an actual instrument I've found a great way of practicing the ney embouchure: with a good old, reliable, cheap-as-chips tin (or 'penny') whistle... take the plastic head off and there's your instant 'Celtic' Ney (TM). The first octave seems easily enough do-able, but I won't be playing it for dancing any time soon.

The instructions on www.neyzen.com seem very helpful for making a noise. I just ordered a kiz tuned ney from the ebay shop of this maker:

http://www.neyneva.com/eng/

Regards,

Harry.

Ney are extremely easy to make out of PVC pipe. It has to be somewhat thin pipe, the inside diameter should be around 5/8's of an inch. Just bevel one end all the way around so that the air has something to split over and drill holes for whatever scale you want. You can copy the hole placement from any other flute you have that's about the same length (I'd go for a length at least as long as a G whistle). You'll probably have to scrap some pieces when the first ones don't play in tune, but since PVC is so cheap and the labor that goes into the mouthpiece is so minimal, it's not much of a problem. Besides, it's going to be a while before you'll be able to get a tone good enough to realize it's not in tune anyway. The tin whistle seems not only a bit short (but the suffara I first got a sound from was about the same length) but a bit too narrow and thin walled too. But, hey, if you can get a sound from it that's great. I got a hint of a sound early on that got me to try again for about 1/2 hour a day for a week before being able to do it again. It really made me wonder how anyone ever decided that a mouthpiece like that was useful in the first place.

If you ever get bored after getting good sound using the Turkish way of blowing, you can always try the intradental style. You can't use the Turkish ney for that though because the baspare gets in the way, I'd suggest PVC, a kaval, or a Persian ney for that.

radi0gnome wrote:

Ney are extremely easy to make out of PVC pipe.

Yes, I know, I'm replying to myself again. But I just found detailed and excellent instructions on how to make a PVC ney complete with hole placement. It was on a web page whose link was elsewhere in this forum, but I didn't think it would hurt to post a direct link to the instructions here:

http://home.att.net/~maged.k.mikhail/making.htm

Harry wrote:

The 'Hiberno PennyNey' has not been accepted as a viable, or even sensible, patent I'm afraid.

Are you joking? Did you really see if you could patent it? That would've been cool if you could have. I'm envious of the guy who invented and patented the pocket protector I put a smiley because it's a joke at one level, but I really am envious.

Harry wrote:

BTW,  isn't the baspare detachable on quality ney? Couldn't one take it off and try the 'Persian Bite'?

My kiz ney was made by an American in Virginia that I don't remember the name of. It was very inexpensive and the baspare (a plastic one, it took a couple years before it stopped smelling like plastic) comes off but the end isn't beveled so it's not good for interdental style playing. The monsur ney was made by a maker in France who I understand has made instruments for internationally known players (the person who got me in touch with him said "like Kudsi Erguner"), and if the baspare comes off, it doesn't easily and I'm scared to force it. If I did get it off I think that not only would I find that the end isn't beveled, but the metal piece would be awful to put in my mouth. That flute set me back $400 in '95, so I'm interested in hearing what the quality of the one you get is like. The guy who made mine didn't have water buffalo horn at the time and said that he could use plastic for the baspare but insisted that I wait until he got water buffalo horn, so he apparently cared about the quality of the instrument. Like I said before, PVC is great to try interdental style. I tried quite a bit but couldn't get a sound that way until I brought a Bulgarian kaval I purchased to Battuvshin Baldantseren, a Mongolian throat singing teacher/performer, who taught me how to do it. Even then it took a while before I could get a sound that way, and I never worked on it enough to really play it like that. BTW, Battuvshin Baldantseren was great, he not only could play Mozart sonatas on a 6 hole transverse flute, but he also made the kaval sound really good. And that was aside from the throat singing and Mongolian instruments that he normally performed with!

Last edited by radi0gnome (2007-03-22 07:22:04)

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

... "The Shakuhachi and the Ney: A Comparison of Two Flutes from the Far Reaches of Asia" (published in Research Reports of Kochi Medical School, 2003).   ...  The length of the nay varies according to the region in which it is found

The ney/nay varies from country to country, and from one context to another.  A ney player of classical Turkish music will use the size chosen respectively by each singer he accompanies, just as a Western pianist transposes according to each singer's range.  Perhaps the quoted statement refers to the length of raw material available according to the region, although my ney teacher (Akagündüz Kutbay) harvested all his reeds form one region in southern Turkey.

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

The Persian ney is referred to as the ney haftband, or seven band ney which corresponds to the seven nodes of the standard shakuhachi.

A Turkish ney must have nine segments (eight nodes).  Ditto, Arab nay.  But I see Daniel's point, that the numerology of an Iranian instrument could likely have been carried over to China, then to Japan.

Karl
"Neyzen Uzunhasan"