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#1 2005-11-03 21:15:46

saille
Member
From: Long Beach, CA
Registered: 2005-11-03
Posts: 16

snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Hello everyone,

I almost feel silly signing up to be part of a forum populated by experienced players and makers, since I am so, so new . . .

For several years now I've been thinking and talking about getting "one of those Japanese flute-things," without any conception whatsoever of what a major step this would turn out to be!  I didn't know what the instrument looked like or was called, only that I loved the sound . . .

I especially didn't have a clue about how difficult the instrument would be to play!

Then, a month or so ago, I became seriously obsessed.  --Spontaneously, for no identifiable reason . . .

And, $$$ later, I now own a couple of very nice instruments, one of them made by Ken LaCosse, a forum administrator here I see.

I was reading a thread here the other night in which a teacher emphasized the non-difficulty, for most new students, of moving from the lower octave up to the second (s/he had never encountered anyone who had severe difficulty with kan, after getting otsu--? I believe these may have been close to the words)  Reading this made me laugh, since I am sooo that person!!!  Octave #1 took me one day; I have been at it for, well actually about a month and a half, and octave #2 is no closer now than it was on day one.  Aaaargh.  I'm actually starting to feel discouraged, since all of the exercises, music, etc., that I have presuppose ability in the second register.  --How to practice what I simply cannot practice?

Enough of my personal frustration--I would like to thank the people who set up this forum, as, well, there's nothing quite like a cyber-community to support something that not many members of the population at large take much interest in!  It does feel very exciting to be in on something new right from the start . . . And to walk, figuratively, as a snail amongst giants.

Last edited by Mujitsu (2005-11-08 11:32:14)

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#2 2005-11-04 02:22:42

Andre
Member
From: Bremen / Germany
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 45

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

saille wrote:

Octave #1 took me one day; I have been at it for, well actually about a month and a half, and octave #2 is no closer now than it was on day one.  Aaaargh.  I'm actually starting to feel discouraged, since all of the exercises, music, etc., that I have presuppose ability in the second register.  --How to practice what I simply cannot practice?

Hi saille,

I also belong to the people whow have problems with kan. Although I can produce the tones while blowing into my tuner, it is just an excessive blowing to bring the sound alive and measure its frequency. This has nothing to do with playing shakuhachi, its rather blowing like crazy until the sound comes out. I practicse after a tutorial of Johne Kaizan Neptune. Its quite good, but concerning kan, he just writes what all others seem to say: "Increase your lip tension and blow a more focussed air stream" Ok, that sounds like simple physics, but how to realize?
Maybe the honored teachers here in this forum or some more advanced students can give us a few useful hints on how to play the second octave clear and how to control the dynamics of the notes.

Welcome to the forum and happy blowing!!

Andre

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#3 2005-11-04 22:48:15

saille
Member
From: Long Beach, CA
Registered: 2005-11-03
Posts: 16

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Nyokai, I'm sorry for not searching hard enough to find your post and quote it directly . . .  I guess when I was composing last night I probably should have taken the time to do this.  I have been thinking about a teacher, and I do have a contact--someone who knows someone with a teacher in my area.  But he (my contact) has suggested that the best thing to do would be to find kan on my own, and approach the teacher once I am comfortable in both registers.  Which is starting to feel a bit like Catch-22! 

Andre, that's wonderful that you have the same problem!  I mean, it's not wonderful that you're having a hard time, but it is wonderful to find company . . . whichever one of us "gets it" first will have to make sure and share with the other how we managed.  I know what you mean about the outrageous blowing--I've been doing that too sometimes.  Sometimes the bottom two notes of the upper register do appear when I least expect them, but I haven't got a clue why, and when I try to reproduce them later or move any higher up the scale I generally lose my sound altogether, or fall back into the lower register.  Ah well.  In years to come perhaps we will both look back fondly on the days of our innocence . . .

On the other hand, a teacher might be a really good idea.  Hmmn.

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#4 2005-11-05 03:43:19

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

saille wrote:

I have been thinking about a teacher, and I do have a contact--someone who knows someone with a teacher in my area.  But he (my contact) has suggested that the best thing to do would be to find kan on my own, and approach the teacher once I am comfortable in both registers.  Which is starting to feel a bit like Catch-22!

Most of the problems beginners have with technique can be diagnosed by a teacher in a fraction of the time it will take you to figure it out by trial and error. Usually it boils down to holding the flute improperly, blowing at the wrong angle, etc. The sooner you start with lessons the faster you will learn how to play the instrument. You can start learning songs, too. Lessons also force you to play with more endurance than you would use if left to your own devices. There are a lot of people out there who don't have access to a teacher. If you do, by all means take advantage of it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2005-11-06 20:10:59

saille
Member
From: Long Beach, CA
Registered: 2005-11-03
Posts: 16

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Considering the pace of my progress sans teacher, I'm beginning to feel more & more convinced . . . thanks for adding your input Tairaku.

I hiked up to a beautiful solitary plateau today to practice, in the hope that sun and skidding clouds, grass and wild deer and grasshoppers would help me to improve . . . but alas.  My personal contribution did not do justice to the place I am afraid!

Last edited by saille (2005-11-06 20:17:08)

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#6 2005-11-06 21:15:39

kenbo
Member
From: Sydney but living in Kanazawa
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 8

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

I know it's been talked about a lot before, how to get kan happening, but I thought I'd add my one thought on it as it is still so fresh in my mind.

The problem I had with trying to blow kan was not so much how to produce the sound but rather what it should sound like. For me personally, it was pointless trying to produce a sound in which I had no idea as to what that sound was (in this case for example, kan no ro).

And then when I could start blowing it, I found that kan no ro sounds very similar to another sound in the otsu register. The sound you get when have holes 1,2,3,4 closed and leaving 5 open. Blowing that note in otsu is very similar to kan no ro. When I discovered this, it became a lot easier to practice kan no ro, and of course once you're there, you can continue up the scale. 

I hope that helps with your practice!

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#7 2005-11-06 23:14:31

Derek Van Choice
Member
From: Lake San Marcos, CA
Registered: 2005-10-21
Posts: 99
Website

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Hi, Saille...

All very good info that everyone has provided, especially in reference to a teacher.  My own input comes with the disclaimer that "I know nothing", especially in such veteran company here on the forum, though did experience the same, elongated process of kan coming into its own.

The Masayuki Koga study book is somewhat intense and detailed for a new student, but it does include some excellent tips for the early stages, i.e. lip postioning, jaw muscles, tounge placement, posture, etc., snippets of it listed below.

I must say, though, that I learned more in 3 lessons with a teacher than all of the books combined.  There are subtleties and not-so-subtleties that are very basic and essential, and may not be found in a book.  The best way is actually a combination of all of the above.  I have been predominantly self-teaching, yet did not want to be burning in improper techniques, so I opted for a few legitimate lessons, to go over the major essentials.  (I really, really need to continue those, now that I have made a tick of progress).  With the growing number of teachers offering online study, maybe that could be a good thing for you, if one is not in your area.

If you haven't seen this yet, http://www.kotodama.net/shakuhachi/tips.html has some excellent tips on this page!

A few, general, physical thoughts would be the following:

~ Assuming the technical aspect is in place, meaning correct embouchure, posture, etc., being relaxed and tension-free, especially in the lips, cheeks, and fingers, is critical, or tones will just seem to disappear!  The lips might need to be slightly wider sometimes, too.  Tension can be an exponential problem, i.e. a tiny amount can sometimes cause notes to thin and fade away; the memory of that happening creates more tension, as the same note approaches again, thus compounding itself.  Try to consciously relax, throughout the entire body, and just assume as fact that the upper notes are going to play fine, and sound as they will.

~ The very tiny tip of the tounge should be resting on top of lower front teeth (most of the time), with top and back of tounge depressed, to enlarge mouth cavity.

~ Lower front teeth should be slightly forward of top front teeth for Otsu lower octave, and both should be inline, vertically, for the Kan, 2nd octave--slight lower law movement, fore to aft, is extremely important.

~ Too much pressure of the flute against the chin can be a common inhibitor of good tone and the ability to progress... try to make sure the flute is BARELY TOUCHING your the cradle of your chin, with almost a hair's width between the two... your pitch will be more true, Kan will be easier, and the body of the sound will "embiggen" smile.  At 3 years, I still battle this one sometimes.

Again, given my limited formal study of major techniques, I hope I am not providing incorrect information that will be a hinderance at some point.  If so, hopefully someone will jump in an enlighten me, too!

That "plateau" was a much happier place today, kan or not.

Last edited by Derek Van Choice (2005-11-06 23:49:24)

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#8 2005-11-07 21:20:01

saille
Member
From: Long Beach, CA
Registered: 2005-11-03
Posts: 16

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Derek Van Choice wrote:

~ Lower front teeth should be slightly forward of top front teeth for Otsu lower octave, and both should be inline, vertically, for the Kan, 2nd octave--slight lower law movement, fore to aft, is extremely important.

THANK YOU Derek, this seems to make the difference in allowing me to arbitrate the appearance of the lowest two notes of kan (progressing any further is still a problem though).  But this is a step--a major step!  And to think part of the solution was so simple . . .

Also kenbo, I hadn't thought about top-finger removed in otsu =ing lowest kan tone--thank you as well!

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#9 2005-11-08 03:52:45

Andre
Member
From: Bremen / Germany
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 45

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Helo everyone,

I find the list of postings above very helpful for greenhorns like me. I would, however, suggest to move the hole topic into the "technique" section. Because as the number of postings grows constantly, I fear that nobody will find it here in the introduction of new members category.
Saille and Mujitsu, what do you think?

Andre

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#10 2005-11-09 00:44:12

saille
Member
From: Long Beach, CA
Registered: 2005-11-03
Posts: 16

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Yes I was beginning to think along those lines as well (thanks moderators for moving us!)

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#11 2005-11-21 13:15:07

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Derek, I'm not following something. You say to keep your tounge on top of your lower teeth, but that doesn't work for me. Do you mean resting behind them, or literally on top?

I have a real problem getting into the second octave, even though I've been playing almost a year, and have picked up just about everything else just fine. I havent' been able to afford lessons, yet, so maybe that will help; in the meantime (since it oculd be a long time before I can get lessons), all my second octave tries are FAR too loud, and I never get up into anything past the first or second note anyway, and they sound bad at that. It makes me wanna cry sometimes.

I'm just not getting how you're supposed to shape your mouth.

-Eddie

Last edited by kyoreiflutes (2005-11-22 03:48:17)


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#12 2005-11-25 03:12:57

saille
Member
From: Long Beach, CA
Registered: 2005-11-03
Posts: 16

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

I discovered something interesting tonight.  If I open finger hole # 4 only, leaving all the other holes covered, a very interesting double note sounds--literally two tones at once, very odd.  If I proceed to tap the finger against the hole repeatedly, trill-style, a sort of underwater sound results--really out of this world!  If after doing this for some time I put the finger down and cover the hole--presto, I'm in kan.  It seems to work every time, unlike the subtle jaw movement thing, which works sometimes. 

Andre, how are you coming with kan?

Wouldn't it be grand if all of us who are having difficulties could get together in one room and experiment?  Now wouldn't that be frightening!

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#13 2005-11-25 05:23:27

Andre
Member
From: Bremen / Germany
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 45

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Hi Saille,

my progress with kan goes on.  I practise with two different flutes: The Yuu, which turned ot to be a good working horse, since it is pretty well tuned but a little hard to play especially in kan. Secondly I blow my old bamboo shakuhachi every day to keep it wet to prevent it from cracking. This flute respods much better, it enables one to play also kan notes quite clear and silent too. But I realised that this changes of the flutes speeds up the progress, because it forces one to adapt things like flute angle, pressure to the chin, shape of embouchure,... and this again forces one to control all these things, leading finally in a "more getting used to what you are doing there". (please forgive my way of expression, I´m not a native english speaker).
I´m now on a level, where I sometimes manage to go up to ri kan, although the sound could still be improved. But this is strictly depending on how much I am relaxed and concentrated. So it works only sometimes but the moments when it works becoming more and more.
I have a question to the experts which is related to your post above saille: If one partially uncovers hole 4 or 5 with all others closed, a quite nice ro kan sonds out. Is it allowed to use this trick in the case of fast Ri otsu - ro kan switches?

Andre

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#14 2005-11-25 15:20:31

saille
Member
From: Long Beach, CA
Registered: 2005-11-03
Posts: 16

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Andre wrote:

But I realised that this changes of the flutes speeds up the progress, because it forces one to adapt things like flute angle, pressure to the chin, shape of embouchure,... and this again forces one to control all these things, leading finally in a "more getting used to what you are doing there".

With my cup-half-empty mindset, I've been thinking that switching flutes was probably slowing me down!

Andre wrote:

I´m now on a level, where I sometimes manage to go up to ri kan, although the sound could still be improved. But this is strictly depending on how much I am relaxed and concentrated. So it works only sometimes but the moments when it works becoming more and more.

It sounds like you're farther along than I am.  The highest I can go is re, and that rarely.  My funky fourth-hole route into kan isn't working this morning either!  Aaargh!!

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#15 2005-11-25 21:34:45

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Andre,

Regarding the 'Ro-kan' you get when opening holes 4 & 5:

What you are playing here is the note named "i" (pronounced 'eee', as in 'eek!'). It is indeed the same pitch as Ro-kan, but it ain't Ro-kan; it has a very different tone color, and is used widely for certain effects, but it's not a subsitute for Ro-kan (when Ro-kan is called for). The only way to go from a proper Ri to a proper Ro-kan is just that: All holes closed and 'overblow' (an unfortunate term...) to get the second octave Ro.

The fingering for "i" is all holes open except for 2 (some people play it with 1 and 2 closed...listen closely and pick the one you like). "i" is also the first note of the THIRD octave (dai-kan, i.e., two octaves above Ro-otsu), and in that case it's always played with just hole 2 closed.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
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#16 2005-11-30 03:19:25

Andre
Member
From: Bremen / Germany
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 45

Re: snail trails (moved from "Member Introductions")

Edosan,

thanks for your explaination! Although it is a bit more difficult in the beginning, it helps to play kan properly.

Saille,

I found out something important regarding kan register. Please don´t laugh because it sounds trivial.
You "simply" need to remember how the note ,which you want to play, sounds like. To do that, of course you need to know how they have to sound. Therefore I have no other recipe than trying all the things posted above concerning kan. If you got a ro kan or even tsu kan, repeat what you did and memorize that sound. Than put the flute away, do somthing else and after a couple of minutes, grab the flute and play tsu kan. It is like driving bycicle! Once you can apply this to ro and tsu, its getting easier to apply this on the other notes of the scale. I tryed out this morning what I practised last night: (otsu)Ri meri, (kan) tsu, chi, re. It immediately worked, no problems at all.
I hope this can help you a little bit.

Andre

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