Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

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Tube of delight!

#26 2007-05-04 17:53:25

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: What do you listen to?

Rick McDaniel wrote:

Yeah, I was saying I don't consider hip-hop/rap, music.

I guess I was the one who misinterpreted what you said.

Rick McDaniel wrote:

Cultural yes, noise yes, crude and inappropiate language yes, music no.

I dislike the inappropriate language too, particularly in cars alongside of me at traffic lights. I've got to disagree about it not being musical though. Some of the gangsta' rap starts dropping out a lot of musicality, but for the most part there's a lot of interesting percussive elements, and lyrically there's a lot of interesting rhymes. The samples they rap over are usually tried and true hooks from tunes I have to say are music. Maybe not great music, but at least usually catchy.   

Rick McDaniel wrote:

It is simply a marketing ploy for folks who aren't really singers, to make some money in the "music" business.

There's some of that. It's not easy though. It doesn't require formal music training, but it does require imitation and a lot of practice. I'm sure there's a fair amount of coaching going on too.

The reason I know this is because I used to do a lot of karaoke and one of the popular tunes was the rap "Bust a Move". It's one of the less offensive ones. It's true that I didn't have to sing very well, but I spent more time practicing that one than I did any real song. And to top it off, rappers have to learn the stuff well enough to do all those hand gestures and look natural. If you ask me, they chose the harder path. Spend the same amount of time learning to sing as you would writing and memorizing rhymes to get started and you could sing almost anything with a minimal amount of further work.     

Rick McDaniel wrote:

I am weary of offensive people.

Me too. That's one reason I don't listen to rap anymore. Things change though. The blues shouter I mentioned, Wynonie Harris, was popular for songs like "Good Morning Judge" that has a stanza about greeting a judge before being tried for getting caught with an underage girl, and another song that had something like "I like my baby's puddin', I like it best of all". I'm sure that was considered very offensive by many in the '50's. Give it another 50 years and most of those rap recordings will seem tame.   

We can always agree to disagree about rap being music, that's usually how similar discussions about it end.

I hate to make the comparison because what you're hearing in rap that is causing you to label it as "not music" obviously is different than than what I'm not hearing in traditional shakuhachi music, but I don't hear the musical rhymes (resolutions?) common in Western in most shakuhachi music. I hear some repititions, but most is foriegn enough to my ear to think it was completely improvised without the goal of creating a melody if I didn't know it was completely notated and accepted as songs.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#27 2007-05-04 18:03:15

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: What do you listen to?

Rick McDaniel wrote:

On shakuhachi, I like my teacher's CD's as well as anyone's, (Stan Richardson), but I also like new age players like Riley Lee and Kazu Matsui, as well as some well known Japanese players, like Koga. I find a good deal of shakuhachi music too repetitive, as many players play the same pieces on CD's. (One of the drawbacks of the teaching system?)

True words. Learning the same repertoire and playing style is good for perpetuating a ryu but not particularly entertaining as a recorded listening experience. For example Yokoyama and his followers tend to make the same CD over and over again. Another problem is using the same flute for an entire CD. Unless you're Yamaguchi Goro it's plain boring to hear the same 1.8 playing for an hour. You can't even hear where one song ends and the next one begins. Recordings, like food, need texture. A lot of good shakuhachi players leave something to be desired as recording artists. Obviously they are recording "what they do" rather than thinking about the fact that once you're selling your music to the public you are making a product of a sort, no matter how pure the music and inspiration is. The people are paying $20 for your CD whether you use one flute or a variety and whether you're playing the same 10 songs as everybody else in your ryu or actually putting some thought into it. As time goes on and there are more recordings out there it will become an important strategy to vary things.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#28 2007-05-04 18:11:04

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: What do you listen to?

Regarding rap and hip hop. This thread is "What do you listen to?" and Rick also mentioned what he doesn't listen to. There's no need to take it personally. All music is entertainment. People think it's art. Some rises to the level of art but that's subjective. Opera, rap and country music are all entertainment for people who are entertained by that stuff. Maybe shakuhachi is a bit different as a religious instrument (like pipe organ perhaps?) but once we do concerts and sell CD's it also becomes entertainment for people who are entertained by shakuhachi music. Anyway religion is entertainment too because usually they charge for admission.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#29 2007-05-04 20:49:00

shaman141
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From: Montreal, QC.
Registered: 2006-02-02
Posts: 154
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Re: What do you listen to?

Just trying to shed some light on an often easily stereotyped artform. Among other types of music, I listen to intelligent Hip-Hop and was annoyed by Rick's attempts to discredit the fact this music actually exists, that's all.

Sean

Last edited by shaman141 (2007-05-04 20:49:30)


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

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#30 2007-05-05 00:13:15

Zakarius
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From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: What do you listen to?

Tairaku wrote:

Anyway religion is entertainment too because usually they charge for admission.

big_smile

Zakarius


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#31 2007-05-05 02:20:26

Karmajampa
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From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: What do you listen to?

I like all music some of the time, some music all of the time, but not all music all of the time.

Yesterday I was listening to some European internet radio station, today I am listening to Beck.

Kel.   


Kia Kaha !

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#32 2007-06-14 22:48:51

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: What do you listen to?

Holy smokes... I like and listen to SO much.  Part of the reason my tastes are so broad has to do with my many interests over the years.  So, here's a rundown, loosely chronological:

Surf music, especially The Sandals.

North Indian Classical, especially Ravi Shankar, Nikhil Banerjee, and Aashish Khan.

Rock, especially The Moody Blues, Savoy Brown, The Jefferson Airplane (my first concert, during the Summer of Love!), Led Zeppelin, Jimi, Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green, Cream, Blind Faith, Derek & The Dominoes, et al.  I must relate my love for an obscure Austin, TX band: The Bubble Puppy!  Also, gotta mention The Allman Brothers with Dwayne and Berry...

Folk/Folk Rock, especially Bob Dylan, Donovan, The Incredible String Band (early stuff).

Later 70's: Elvis Costello & The Attractions

"Out there" psychedelic stuff:  Malachi, recorded in San Francisco in 1966... a thing called Holy Music. Also, Timothy Leary: Beyond Life With Timothy Leary (recent).

I love a lot of Flamenco stuff.

Country?  Really old Johnny Cash, Hank Williams (my mother went to high school with him in Montgomery, AL), Buck Owens.

Contemporary:  Tortoise

Coyote Oldman: Rainbird; I listen to that a lot.

I really like the Paul Horn / R. Carlos Nakai collaborations in Canyon de Chelly and Monument Valley.  I listen to that stuff all the time.

That's about it, I suppose...

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#33 2007-06-15 00:34:40

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: What do you listen to?

Tairaku wrote:

Rick McDaniel wrote:

On shakuhachi, I like my teacher's CD's as well as anyone's, (Stan Richardson), but I also like new age players like Riley Lee and Kazu Matsui, as well as some well known Japanese players, like Koga. I find a good deal of shakuhachi music too repetitive, as many players play the same pieces on CD's. (One of the drawbacks of the teaching system?)

True words. Learning the same repertoire and playing style is good for perpetuating a ryu but not particularly entertaining as a recorded listening experience. For example Yokoyama and his followers tend to make the same CD over and over again. Another problem is using the same flute for an entire CD. Unless you're Yamaguchi Goro it's plain boring to hear the same 1.8 playing for an hour. You can't even hear where one song ends and the next one begins.

True that all the same pieces are recorded, but I never get bored by this, and as a player and listener, I dont consider it a drawback. I love hearing the same pieces interpreted in different ways by the best players. Hearing the same piece by the same player recorded at different stages in their  lives reveals differences and gives further insight too, helping me find other ways to balance out the way I interpret the piece. You can go ever deeper into honkyoku, and this is one of the reasons I play. The shakuhachi itself just happens to be the tool for the music.

Same flute all the way through a cd can get a bit stale, but if a player can bring out the character for each piece, I think it keeps the cd from sounding like its 74 minutes of the same blowing. Iwamoto only uses D and Bb on the recordings I have heard, but the pieces are played so differently that sometimes I have been surprised to find that he is using the same two flutes.

Last edited by caffeind (2007-06-15 01:10:08)

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#34 2007-06-15 01:28:01

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: What do you listen to?

Hey Harazda, Zen differences aside...   yay, another surf lover.  I love the pure, old-timey surf a lot, but also new surf-punk-tech stuff like Man Or Astroman.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#35 2007-06-15 01:35:45

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What do you listen to?

Today I was listening to the chill station on XM all day (station 84). That's real mind altering stuff.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#36 2007-06-15 09:25:53

Rick McDaniel
Member
Registered: 2007-01-08
Posts: 29

Re: What do you listen to?

Musical preferences reflect our experience as much as anything else. They also reflect our age and point in the life cycle. Yet, almost any instrument can be played in a pleasing way, or in an annoying way, depending on the style and preferences of the player.

Tairaku makes a good point, in that music is entertainment, and while there are those who want to make everything they are interested in, into an art form, I feel that music is more about sharing one's emotions with others, and that can take on a wide range of sound. Music is an extension of our inner voices, which seek to cry out, whether in joy or sadness, in meditation or in glee. It is those inner voices we hear, when we are moved by music, as a listener.

My own preferences reflect major changes over the years, yet they also reflect a return to a point I can remember as a young man. I am 62 now, but I can remember that at 19, I was listening to totally different music than my peers. Then, as now, I was very much into instrumental music, rather than vocals, and I have returned to that point, today.

Even in the California surfer music days, my single favorite pop song of that era, was an instrumental called "Pipeline", by the Chantays, as I recall. At 19, I was listening to mostly instrumental world music, and had discovered the Austrian Zither, flamenco, and mandolin.

At 57, I listened to a CD of Native American Flute, and my long dormant native blood awoke. I experienced a Vision Journey, while listening to that music, (the one and only time I have experienced such a thing), and that was the stimulus that caused me to embark on my flute journey. Now I listen to all forms of flute music from all parts of the world, and find other forms of music lacking, when I get out a CD I used to find pleasing, that doesn't contain flute.

Music is a very personal thing, so what I listen to and like very much, others may find less satisfying. Each to their own. For me, the voices of the ancients now speak to me, and I choose to listen to them. Any musical voice that speaks to me personally, will be my favorite form of music, from now until I can no longer listen.

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#37 2007-06-15 10:47:39

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: What do you listen to?

Rick McDaniel wrote:

Tairaku makes a good point, in that music is entertainment, and while there are those who want to make everything they are interested in, into an art form, I feel that music is more about sharing one's emotions with others, and that can take on a wide range of sound. Music is an extension of our inner voices, which seek to cry out, whether in joy or sadness, in meditation or in glee. It is those inner voices we hear, when we are moved by music, as a listener.

Do you mean to say that all music is entertainment?

I listen to some music for entertainment, and some for something else. For entertainment I listen to funk, electronic music and instrumental hip hop. I like music where a person is just doing their thing and it rolls out naturally, people like Meshell Ndegeocello, Les Claypool (especially when he moves his right leg), Stevie Wonder. Meshell especially, she is one of my favorite musicians.

Here is a little tune I wrote nearly ten years ago. A lot of my friends love this track. Not my favorite style but I was happy with the way it turned out, dont mind listening to it myself  smile

http://www.mediafire.com/?3xdg7h5d5tz

Last edited by caffeind (2007-06-15 10:52:45)

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#38 2007-06-15 14:37:08

Rick McDaniel
Member
Registered: 2007-01-08
Posts: 29

Re: What do you listen to?

Well Shaman 141, guess I just can't be expected to be as knowledgeable as you are. On the other hand, I don't behave in the same way as you do, and I don't belittle other people, just because I might see things a little differently.

Perhaps you should rethink your handle, as a shaman has some insights, which you obviously do not.

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#39 2007-06-15 16:59:14

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: What do you listen to?

Let's just hope hochiku never infiltrates Nashville.

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#40 2007-06-15 18:00:27

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: What do you listen to?

Tairaku wrote:

Another problem is using the same flute for an entire CD. Unless you're Yamaguchi Goro it's plain boring to hear the same 1.8 playing for an hour. You can't even hear where one song ends and the next one begins.

Interesting that you happened to mention this. On my last lesson we were going through Sanya Sugagaki. I commented something about how this piece seems fairly easy because it repeats so much that you can memorize and learn the basics of all the distinct parts within a few days. My teacher said that although the piece itself is rather simple as far as these things go it is also rather difficult in a different way. Unlike many other pieces which are interesting because they keep changing all the time, this particular piece needs to be made interesting by the player. By the time you play the same phrase for the fifth time your listeners are going to be bored to tears unless you can somehow play it different every time. He also mentioned that when Yamaguchi Goro used to play the piece he would play the same phrase in a slightly different way every time to a point where it didn't really feel the same anymore. At first you might have a slow, moody phrase followed by a more dramatic one with less slides from one note to another. In some sense this kind of thing may be even more difficult than playing a complicated piece because the piece itself isn't interesting.

As far as the rap topic goes, I'd love to hear someone playing shakuhachi with a rap artist. It could work by taking alternative turns at doing short phrases so that one does a solo and the other does some background. Rap is often very flexible as far as timing goes and thus it might be very good match for the shakuhachi. Another thing that might be worth trying is to have the shakuhachi play long tones with slight variations while the rapper does his thing while matching the pitch of the tone. I would think that with some practice the two could find a common ground so that the shakuhachi could for example emphasize specific words by jumping into kan at the right moment. There are quite a few interesting techniques that could result in very interesting pieces.

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#41 2007-06-15 18:03:07

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What do you listen to?

Harazda wrote:

Let's just hope hochiku never infiltrates Nashville.

Don't worry, they'll never be able to figure it out. It doesn't have any strings. smile


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#42 2007-06-16 22:14:02

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: What do you listen to?

radi0gnome said:  <quote>I think was on one of Brian Eno's oblique strategies cards. Paraphrased, it goes something like "If you don't like it, the problem isn't with the music, but is with your ears". There's a lot in that statement.<end>

When selling some Kyomudo shakuhachi at the Boulder WSF, a prospective buyer asked a well-known player to test a 1.6 I had and to give his opinion.  He played it and said that it was, among other things, 'sweet'.  The prospective buyer said that the upper register was more difficult to reach than another 1.6 made by a different maker.  The tester's comment was something to the effect of:(paraphrased)"sometimes the inequities perceived to be in a shakuhachi are rather lessons to be learned by the player."  My 1.6 was sold.

I'm really enjoying the music of The Brian Blade Fellowship recently; rich and narative.  Maria Joao's singing is not only an audible treat, but visually stimulating.  Joe Zawinul's lyrical treatments have been an elixir ever since Live in Tokyo.  And I keep coming back to the musicianship of John McGlaughlin in all of his incarnations.
Jeff

Last edited by Jeff Cairns (2007-06-16 22:36:13)


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#43 2007-06-17 22:57:31

Ash
Member
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2007-04-29
Posts: 9

Re: What do you listen to?

radi0gnome wrote:

Harazda wrote:

Let's just hope hochiku never infiltrates Nashville.

Don't worry, they'll never be able to figure it out. It doesn't have any strings. smile

Heh!

Well, vaguely on such a topic, yesterday evening I went out to see a "country blues vs Japanese traditional" gig at a nearby pub. Some of you Melbourne folks might know of guitar/harmonica player George Kamikawa (www.georgekamikawa.com), he was playing a show with shamisen player Noriko Tadano. Both are brilliant at their respective instruments. They played some originals, some traditional Japanese songs, and some covers... I gotta say, it's quite an experience hearing songs by Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters, Elvis, Bob Marley a few others being played with a shamisen and taiko backing. smile Worked surprisingly well.

They're doing another show together next Sunday evening, 5:00pm, at the Great Britain Hotel on Church St in Richmond if anyone's keen. smile Free! More money for beer!

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#44 2007-06-18 16:38:15

Horst Xenmeister
Shiham
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-26
Posts: 69
Website

Re: What do you listen to?

I like good American musik example ABBA und Beatles.

For shakuhachi good one Kazzoya Yokoyamam, Watzumi, and for Europe someone is good.

Blues like Muddy Waters and Gorge Tohrogood.


i am horst

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#45 2007-06-23 14:49:32

Harry
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
Website

Re: What do you listen to?

I like both types of music: Country AND Western.

Seriously though, I don't listen to much music at home, the world is so full of music. We're bombarded by it a bit, especially in cities and in the popular media. At times I think people don't really hear it, like its been completely devalued, like we've generally become desensitized to it through over exposure.

Not so very long ago a live music performance was quite a rare event (where I am anyway), it had a bit of value and was held in esteem. Here in Ireland its great to go into the countryside where some of the older people still remember a little of the excitement of music from slightly older times, its great when they ask for some of the old tunes, and they are truly grateful to hear them.

Regards,

Harry.

Last edited by Harry (2007-06-23 14:50:29)


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#46 2007-06-23 15:46:15

shaman141
Member
From: Montreal, QC.
Registered: 2006-02-02
Posts: 154
Website

Re: What do you listen to?

Like Danny Boy.. Sounds beautiful on Shakuhachi:)

-Sean


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

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#47 2007-06-23 18:48:05

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: What do you listen to?

Harazda wrote:

Let's just hope hochiku never infiltrates Nashville.

Already has! I'm here blowin'!..... I know you're talking about the country music business. Half of country music recording and production is done in Los Angeles now. Many country artists, also, have homes in LA. In case you haven't noticed, country music is much bigger than Nashville now. The music scene here is becoming very diverse actually....... Personally, when I'm not listening to honkyoku, I listen to chant and Rage Against the Machine. Kinda balances things out!smile.....But don't you guys worry, 'Ro Tsu Re' won't be replacing 'Oh Sue Rae' anytime soon! Love yas, Kerry


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#48 2007-06-24 02:32:28

Marc
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From: Miami,Florida USA
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 67
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Re: What do you listen to?

Lester Young. Lester Young with Billie Holiday. Lester Young with Count Basie. Lester Young with Nat King Cole. Lester Young

 
                                                                         "Prez...the REAL Prez..."

                                                                                            --Rahshaan Roland Kirk

Last edited by Marc (2007-06-24 02:32:59)


Creative activity could be described as a type of learning process where teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

                                              --Arthur Koestler

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#49 2007-06-25 02:36:47

Jason
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2006-11-09
Posts: 10

Re: What do you listen to?

Rick McDaniel wrote:

Yeah, I was saying I don't consider hip-hop/rap, music.

Cultural yes, noise yes, crude and inappropiate language yes, music no. It is simply a marketing ploy for folks who aren't really singers, to make some money in the "music" business. Lots of them are getting rich, but they aren't making music, they are simply offensive, which seems to be the thing to be these days.

I am weary of offensive people.

You mention you're weary of offensive people yet everything you just said is offensive. I can without a doubt say you've never heard hip-hop music once in your entire life. What you are speaking of is commercial rap. You'll never hear hip-hop blaring from a car at a traffic light, or on the radio, or on tv. Unless you've been to a live show or have personally bought the music yourself, then your opinion is nothing more than a narrow uniformed opinion and you should expect to get called out. It's no different than if you were to just hear Shania Twain and Kenny G, then proceed to bash country and jazz music. They're just commerial mimics. All you've contributed is a fine example of the generation gap.

Last edited by Jason (2007-06-25 02:43:57)

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#50 2007-06-25 12:18:40

shaman141
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From: Montreal, QC.
Registered: 2006-02-02
Posts: 154
Website

Re: What do you listen to?

Well said.


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

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