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#1 2006-11-30 16:39:07

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Hi guys.

I have started transcribe Shakuhachi repertuar in Western Notation.
First started as a need , I have to write the music for my band members.
But now I am thinking to make a book with them.

So far I transcribed Tamuke, Choshi, Lulaby of Itsuki.(long version)

Do you guys have sugestion about the songs in the book? Any particular song that you will like to be there?And can you provide a recording of that?

All the contributiors will recive a copy of book when will be done.

Thank you
geni

Last edited by geni (2006-11-30 16:44:11)

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#2 2006-11-30 16:45:41

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

I have transcribed several honkyoku into western for purposes of playing with western musicians. It's a frustrating practice, hope you do better than I did. A lot of things can't be notated. But it is interesting to get westerners to grapple with this music on their own turf.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2006-11-30 22:38:04

PSTL
Member
From: Jacksonville, FL USA
Registered: 2006-08-02
Posts: 67

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

I would love to grapple with some honkyoku in Western notation. I'm a novice without access to a teacher, so it might help me to learn a little faster. Learning traditional Japanese notation has turned out to be a daunting task for me. So far, most of my learning is by listening to pieces and improvising. By the way, I just figured out, "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" (Thanks Tairaku for recommending it in an earlier post.).

I mostly play a 1.8 Yuu (waiting on a 1.8 from Perry Yung). I've been trying to learn traditional from Take-no-Michi, The Path of Bamboo, A Beginner's Guide to Learning Shakuhachi Honkyoku (what a struggle!). 

Anyway, I would love to have any pieces in Western notation. Let me know if, when, and how I can acquire.

Thank you.
Phil

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#4 2006-12-01 11:13:53

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

honkyoku, seems to me, is impossible to notate in western music. Yeah, you can put the basic pitches down but that is only a small fraction of the music. Color, dynamics and such are the important part of this music. Having a  western instrument plays these melodies hardly seems like an interesting idea to me.

It is quite interesting to see how shakuhachi is suddenly developing. Many people that are beginners, some who never even took lessons are trying to figure out "new" ways to play and even teach the music!

Notation is suddenly being tossed around to people who cant read it and they are "learning" from it. wow...

Kinda scary in some ways... smile

phil


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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#5 2006-12-01 11:55:05

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

philipgelb wrote:

It is quite interesting to see how shakuhachi is suddenly developing. Many people that are beginners, some who never even took lessons are trying to figure out "new" ways to play and even teach the music!

I find the debate on "traditionality" very interesting. Both sides have valid arguments. When I still did iaido, I always found it somewhat amusing that we would often have two instances of the same kata, one done from a position that would make more sense if you had a heavy armor on you. The amusing part is that none of us obviously had armors and chances were that nobody from the group would ever see an armor where such a position is more suitable. Still, it was traditional and so we learned those things.

Now, shakuhachi is of course different because it's not "obsolete" in same way as sword fighting is. Good music made thousand years ago is still good music today. There is also the fact that any kind of music was pretty "new" at some point and most likely faced a lot of resistance from those who were used to the old music. Despite being as young as I am, I still find myself occasionally thinking that someone doing something I used to do differently must be insane. After that I get the feeling that I must be getting old, but that's another story entirely.

philipgelb wrote:

Notation is suddenly being tossed around to people who cant read it and they are "learning" from it. wow...

I would love to see more conversation on this topic, actually. Since I mostly self-study as well, I find the topic interesting. I think a lot of confusion comes from different people having different ideas of what it means to play shakuhachi. Some may feel that learning shakuhachi means learning various traditional honkyoku pieces whereas others may feel that getting the kind of sound out of the pipe is the trick.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your "goal" in learning shakuhachi? This is not a trick question or a Zen koan. I'm just rather curious what different people are looking for.

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#6 2006-12-01 12:40:02

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Nice debate..
just to make the points clear.

This is not substitute to traditional writing, or too a teacher.

Its just a need that the market needs. To many people don`t have a teacher around them. lessons costs a lot. 50$ for lesson, and you can`t learn a lot in one lessonn (specially begginers without previous musical experience).
And, you dodn`t want to be depented only from one source to learn. The more the better.

Anyway,.
i work with great musicians, and I want to integriate shakuhachi as much as possible in the performance..
I want to intergrate the repertuar too.
So, I have to have some music in western notation, so they can see whats going on, so they can put the chords.

I have a cool way how to trabscribe music..(ear & technology)

All the best

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#7 2006-12-01 13:12:41

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Hi Phil,

Of course western notation can't give an accurate sense of honkyoku, but then neither does the Japanese notation. I have used the western notation to communicate thus far with upright bass, tuba and trombone players, i.e. instruments that can bend notes and play microtones. After I explain some other things to them ("all the flat notes in this piece are quarter tones", "each bar represents one breath, not a fixed rhythm") they do a good job with it, better than most shakuhachi players. And it sounds great. Part of the reason I do this thing is Buddhism and I think it's cool to spread Buddhist music any way possible. Of course I am playing with kick ass musicians. I understand what you mean about beginners not starting out with western music and thinking they can learn without a teacher. But I don't see any reason why western instruments should not play honkyoku. Ned Rothenberg and James Schlefer do a good job with it on sax and alto flute respectively. Not to replace the shakuhachi but just as another way to look at it. After all sax players are not complaining about the likes of you and me playing jazz on shakuhachi.

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#8 2006-12-01 13:13:22

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

philipgelb wrote:

Many people that are beginners, some who never even took lessons are trying to figure out "new" ways to play and even teach the music!

But that is out of ignorance of the history of the instrument and its music. Big difference between studying/playing shakuhachi music and simply playing on an end-blown 5-hole flute making pleasing sounds (to the player).

Shakuhachi music is a collection of forms as are shakuhachi instruments -- some of these forms are debatable, but some, and I would dare say most, are not. Daniel Ryudo has had informative things to say on this forum about kata (form).

Using a shakuhachi instrument to play free-form collections of sounds is perfectly valid, but that does not make it shakuhachi music, nor the way its played shakuhachi technique. There are people who use guitar as a percussion instrument, however they are not guitar players, nor their music guitar music.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#9 2006-12-01 13:32:19

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Chris Moran wrote:

Shakuhachi music is a collection of forms as are shakuhachi instruments -- some of these forms are debatable, but some, and I would dare say most, are not. Daniel Ryudo has had informative things to say on this forum about kata (form).

Using a shakuhachi instrument to play free-form collections of sounds is perfectly valid, but that does not make it shakuhachi music, nor the way its played shakuhachi technique.

I guess the danger in this is that it turns into one huge "No True Scotsman" scenario where everyone has an arbitrary definition for the word and thus nothing is "the real thing". Personally I use the term "shakuhachi music" loosely for things that primarily feature a shakuhachi. Thus, Tairaku plays "shakuhachi music" in my opinion even though not all of his tracks are strictly traditional. I find it a good idea to specify what I mean if I really want to imply something more specific. Say, if I really want to ask if someone plays Kinko Ryu pieces rather than whether or not he plays at all, I'll mention that just to be on the safe side.

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#10 2006-12-01 13:46:18

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

yeah, i have heard Ned Rothenberg play honkyoku on alto sax and it is quite something! But Ned started doing that years after studying both shakuhachi and sax (and clarinets!), not a few months after hearing the piece and touching the instrument for the first time. His renditions of these pieces on sax are, to put it lightly, very informed!

My comment was geared towards someone else's comments on harmonizing honkyoku and "jamming
with it" with other instruments. Even with my rather broad pallette of musicial interests, this sounds like a really awful idea to me.  "Tamuke", as an example, is a complete composition, in and of itself. The idea of someone playing chords behind it cant possibly add to it.

Shakuhachi is an amazing instrument! It has a wonderuful tradition and many of us are using it in rather non traditional ways as well.  But many people seem to think they can pick it up and a few months later, should  go on stage and into recording studios with it and then arranging and rearranging its traditional repetoire without having much clue about the instrument or pieces to begin with. To me, this is where the problem lies.

As for lessons...well, yeah, it takes a while to learn shakuhachi. is this a surprise to anyone? And lessons are not that inexpensive (i charge $40 and i am less than many other teachers) but that is the most obvious (and easiest!!) way to learn any subject, by sitting with someone who has done it for many years or decades!

phil


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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#11 2006-12-01 14:43:52

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

philipgelb wrote:

My comment was geared towards someone else's comments on harmonizing honkyoku and "jamming
with it" with other instruments. Even with my rather broad pallette of musicial interests, this sounds like a really awful idea to me.  "Tamuke", as an example, is a complete composition, in and of itself. The idea of someone playing chords behind it cant possibly add to it.



phil

Yeah, jamming on honkyoku might not work that well. I haven't tried doing that with western musicians. I just arrange the honkyoku and play them with their original structure intact. And although not everything I play is traditional (as Amokrun said) I always use techniques even in the most untraditional setting that I wouldn't know if I didn't have solid traditional training.

Nevertheless there are a lot of people on this forum and in the world who simply don't have access to a teacher so they have to relate to it any way they can.

Geni and other interested parties, go to the Mejiro website and they have a bunch of shakuhachi music which is transcribed into Western notation. Hozan Yamamoto even has a book like that.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2006-12-01 15:40:10

PSTL
Member
From: Jacksonville, FL USA
Registered: 2006-08-02
Posts: 67

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Wow! I want to express my opinion without injury to anyone. So here goes.

Over the last two years, I've been learning to play the shakuhachi for my own personal enjoyment. For years I have practiced breathing meditations and I find this instrument the perfect compliment to my practice.

I'm 53-years old and I will spend the rest of my life learning the instrument, to the best of my ability. If I can get the basic pitches down, then I can begin to focus on the "Color, dynamics and such". That's why I listen to traditional music and try to play (I also listen to non-traditional music such as Jazz)

With all due respect, it seems to come down to why should it matter how I learn or what I learn to anyone, except to me?

Should people like me be denied western notation because it breaks with "tradition"? So what? What's so "scary"? Where's the "danger"?

Does a group or someone have ownership of the learning process? Are there rules?

There are way too many competency levels for me to be concerned about. I'm just going to be the best that I can be by the time I take my last breath. 

I don't believe that anyone should be made to feel any less of a person for the effort or be denied learning options.

There are no teachers in my corner of the map and I'm not financially ready for online learning. I, like many others, have to learn the best way that I can.

Thank you for allowing me to express myself. I hope to learn more from this forum as the days move on.

Phil

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#13 2006-12-01 15:55:57

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Thank you everybody for their post.

I didn`t want to make this the debate of the year.

First, people can do whatever they do with their music,how to learn it , and how to play it.
Music is not Stalinistik regime , thanks God we are over that (I know, living in Albania).

I been playing shakuhachi one year now..I can`t afford the lessons..hey I am poor. If somebody what to give me free lessons I will take it.
But, I can learn with whatever way I can. Its working...
I been studying music all my life-I am still studying.
Transcribing, playing a-long, Jaming yes..I will do all of that.
About recordings and stage performing...the more the better.

Peace
Geni

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#14 2006-12-01 16:42:40

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

PSTL wrote:

With all due respect, it seems to come down to why should it matter how I learn or what I learn to anyone, except to me?

You're right. It shouldn't matter to anyone.

I've often wanted to see more discussion here about what people's aspirations for playing are. Not all of us have access to teachers, at least consistently. Not all of us have computer hardware that would allow adequate online conferencing ability.  Not all of us have immense amounts of time to practice to a professional level or even an advanced amateur level. I relate strongly to all of those issues

Personally, I'm a student of the instrument and the music for purely for my own edification. I appreciate all of the schools that I have heard and also shakuhachi music and musicians that some teachers and experts say is sub-standard or off-the-mark. There are many "True Scotsmen" in my book -- if that matters to anyone else.

But I think there are very, very few 'instant masters' of shakuhachi playing, teaching or making and that's where my comments were focused.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#15 2006-12-01 19:33:20

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

I tend to agree with Phil. If a beginning person wants to play honkyoku music, they have to realize they are participating in a tradition. Like it or not, traditions stand the test of time through some structured guidelines, hopefully taught to you by a qualified teacher. I understand there are people nowhere near teachers, but there are books to help learn the notation and even internet lessons. I see no legitimate excuse for not wanting to learn the traditional notation of honkyoku if your desire is to play honkyoku.   How many pro baskeball players do you know that got to the top without learning the the rules of the game first? For that matter, even a street baller can tell you the difference between a foul shot and a slam dunk. I don't hear too many people saying, "I want to be the best track star I can be, but I'm going to do it without that whole running thing."

Are lessons expensive? Not if you have decided that the shakuhachi is an important part of your life.

Honkyoku with additional instruments is an interesting topic as well. Not sure about this because I was thrown when I ordered Mitsuhashi Kifu's "Komuso World in Shakuhachi". I was thouroughly dissapointed and not moved in the slightest way with his 70's sounding orchestra additions to traditional honkyoku. However,  on "Train to Okinawa", Riley Lee has a beautiful interpretation of Tamuke called Requiem Six Twenty that is a duet with cello. He has not strayed from the theme of Tamuke whatsoever. And I would bet that the honkyoku was transcribed into western notation for the cellist, but Riley would have learned the essence of the song through traditional transmission.

Josh

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#16 2006-12-01 19:50:27

gmiller
Member
From: Ozello Trail, Fla
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 109

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Japanese notation is well worth learning; granted it takes some effort, but again, well worth it....
I believe the "language" of the notation is far richer then western notation and if understood will help a self-taught student
gain enough understanding of the music to play basic pieces.

I'm reminded of the time, as a cabinet maker I decided to switch to metric to eliminate fractions. At first there was chaos and complaints
in the shop, but w/in a short time everyone appreciated the math of whole numbers as opposed to fractions.

Japanese notation v. western; it's only a switch in our head..... turn the switch. Learn something new....

George

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#17 2006-12-01 20:24:12

PSTL
Member
From: Jacksonville, FL USA
Registered: 2006-08-02
Posts: 67

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

In my opinion, just show me which holes to open or close, in any language. I'll seek to work out the kinks from there.

No disrespect intended.
Peace

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#18 2006-12-01 21:13:06

gmiller
Member
From: Ozello Trail, Fla
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 109

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

OK... nothing wrong in agreeing to disagree.....

The person that will show you which holes to open and close is called a teacher. Can't find one close by?.... teach yourself

By the way.... the "kinks" are far more difficult....

Remember, this is "your" journey. It's not easy, but nothing worth while is.......

I wish you the best of luck, my friend

George

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#19 2006-12-05 03:50:46

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

"What happens when something is carried out from one culture to another?  Perhaps a musical idea is taken apart and put back together again differently.  Gaps may occur.  Leaps are made.  One takes off from one place and lands in another, and the place where one lands is changed, just as in jumping over a creek one leaves behind a muddy footprint." (from On Writing for Shakuhachi: A Western Perspective, by Tania Cronin, Contemporary Music Review, 1994, vol. 8)

Changes in notation and debates over changes in the notation are not new to the history of shakuhachi.  First there was a simple notation for hitoyogiri flutes, then the fu ho u notation and the Meian tablature, and then several centuries later the ro tsu re notation that most of us playing traditional music now are familiar with, and now some of us are moving to do re mi?  In an article written for the second volume of the Annals of the International Shakuhachi Society, Riley Lee notes that the sounds of fu, ho, and u are thought to have been derived from the breath sounds when one is playing the shakuhachi and that the one syllable sounds from the Meiji era ro tsu re system perhaps developed in imitation of the percussive sounds generated by the koto and shamisen, the instruments shakuhachi began playing in ensemble with after the Meiji Restoration of 1868.  Western music and staff notation were made part of Japan's compulsory education system in the late 19th century and by the early 20th century the majority of newly composed shakuhachi pieces were written in staff notation so what is happening now with cross cultural pollination is just a furthering of that process. 

However, the two notation systems are conceptually quite different; there is no one to one correspondence between Western notation and the traditional shakuhachi notations (and some notations, notably Tozan and Chikuho, have managed to incorporate certain elements from staff notation; the repeat sign, for example).
Riley Lee wrote about this topic several decades ago in a prescient article entitled "The Technology of Notation Systems and Implications of Change in the Shakuhachi Tradition of Japan," (in the 1st volume of the Annals), addressing the same issues that are being discussed on this forum now.  He noted that traditional tablature for shakuhachi refers to fingerings while the staff notation refers to definite pitches.  One of the unique points of the shakuhachi is the varying timbres one can get out of different fingerings for the same pitch.  To express that sort of thing in standard notation would seem to require making up extra symbols or graphic representation, scribbling notes in the margins, whatever, and it is being done or has been done by people who are composing modern pieces for shakuhachi.   Lee contrasts the universality of the staff notation with the exclusivity of the shakuhachi tablature, noting that shakuhachi notation systems are not only specific to the shakuhachi itself, but to the ryuha or different schools of the instrument.  That may be one reason why it took so long for shakuhachi to be introduced in public schools in Japan, as there was controversy over which notation to use (or so I've heard).  The Western emphasis on pitch has already changed the way most shakuhachi makers make their instruments; just a week ago a guy in our local shakuhachi group had his flute examined by a well known flute maker who pointed out the placement of the third hole on his shakuhachi was "wrong;" the student's flute had been made more than a decade ago by our iemoto.  The student was a bit upset as he'd paid a good amount for his flute but the placement of the hole wasn't "wrong" for the koten music he is playing (the note A was usually a bit sharp on traditional instruments).  G Miller pointed out that the language of the shakuhachi notation seems richer than the staff notation, Chris noted that traditional shakuhachi music appears to be a collection of forms -- definitely a lot of formalized patterns in there (thanks for the compliment, though I don't remember now what I may have rambled on about), and Josh mentioned the importance of the notation to the shakuhachi tradition.  Obviously the notation itself is a large part of the shakuhachi tradition, and I personally find it more aesthetically appealing than staff notation; my teacher's teacher has written out all the honkyoku pieces by hand -- quite amazing.  I would however like to learn to read staff notation for shakuhachi so that I could play jazz and other types of pieces not currently available in traditional notation for shakuhachi (I did learn staff notation on other instruments years ago).  In Japan now, one can find many more modern music pieces available in Tozan notation than in Kinko, and it's unfortunate really, as that may place some limitation on Kinko players who might be playing a greater variety of pieces if the music notes were readily available, though Tozan is not as difficult to learn as western notation for the Kinko player (but still can be a bit confusing).  Music notation systems are in some ways like languages, though not as complex.  I like to tell people that my kanji skills are really low because I spent all that time learning how to read Japanese traditional music notation but that's not really true; what's true is that I spent a lot more time practicing shakuhachi than studying kanji.  In an article on aspects of the flute in the 20th century, French flautist Pierre-Yyes Artaud posed the question ""Can a single grammar satisfy the originality of creation?" and he states, "there exists a poetics of the sign.  Its role is much greater than it appears... Let us allow the beauty and the magic of the sign to express the profound mystery engendered by music."  One hopes that a variety of systems of notation will be able to coexist without one overwhelming the others.

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#20 2006-12-05 05:18:47

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

Nice debate. I'm convinced that music either sounds good and communicates or it doesn't. If it sounds good, then it doesn't matter who made it or how.

As a matter of pedagogy this discussion is more relevant. But for an individual musician like Geni, if his methods lead to some beautiful music then it's OK.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#21 2007-08-04 13:50:49

Nobody
Member
From: Prescott, Arizona USA
Registered: 2007-05-06
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

The debate on traditionality is interesting. No matter what the tradition, there's always a spectrum.
There has never been any fixed tradtion at any point in time, or a "good old days" of shakuhachi because everyone adds their own element to it. However, there is some sense of a "backbone" that seems to change in time. We find that in linguistics, too, where some camps insist that you say "a historic moment" and another language expert says you must say "an historic moment". "Y'all" is becoming more accepted as a second person plural term. Languages evolve. The sense of "traditional" changes over time. When Tozan developed, I'm sure there was an outcry. Now it's considered traditional.

As far as the cries of "get a teacher" go, I would love to get a teacher so long as someone is willing to fly a teacher to where I live and pay for the lessons, because I sure can't do that myself. I'm happy for you that you have a teacher nearby and are able to pay him/her. I wonder if this attitude is the reason why it is so difficult to find a quality book/cd set for learning shakuhachi. Perhaps we need to revive Mel Bay and get him to learn shakuhachi so he can write a decent shakuhachi method. Between good learning materials and Cd's, videos, internet, forums like this, I'm sure a beginner who has some instrumental foundation can find a way to become a serious shakuhachi player.

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#22 2007-08-04 15:21:14

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

im surprised no one has yet mentioned evan ziporyn's honshirabe on the "this is not a clarinet" cd

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#23 2007-08-04 16:08:17

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Shakuhachi music in western notation.

baian wrote:

im surprised no one has yet mentioned evan ziporyn's honshirabe on the "this is not a clarinet" cd

A very fine album. You can listen to 'Honshirabe' and other tracks here (takes a few moments to load the page):

http://free.napster.com/view/artist/ind … d=11685770


eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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