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#51 2007-06-29 08:06:12

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

After reading the strident, militaristic, intollerant, right-wing lingo from Zen masters as qoted in "Zen at War" I was reminded of this cheerful chap: there follows some quotes from contemporary Kagyu Lama Ole Nydahl leader of the well populated "Diamond Way" Kagyu movement:

When asked if it is the task of a Buddhist teacher to address social and political issues Ole Nydahl responded:

"... If the people who can see further don't speak, they are shirking their responsibility. I always say, ‘I don't have to be popular, but I must be right.’" [9]

"... The teacher must act as he speaks. He should also not simply avoid
confrontational subjects but point out the causes of future trouble like overpopulation in ghettos and poor countries, and the growth of Islam. If a teacher always tells sweet nothings he is not protecting his students. He must be willing to offend some. This is his responsibility." [10]

His supporters argue that Ole Nydahl stated often: "the best way to address the world’s greatest problems is to pay poor families around the world to not have more than one or two children and help to educate the ones they have":

"... Imagine the relief if one could visit Africa and meet healthy, free and educated people like in our societies today?"[9]

... by many accounts this is but the tip of the iceberg.

One wonders does he include that sublime mystical tradition Sufism in his value "Islam"?

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Nydahl

Regards,

Harry.

Last edited by Harry (2007-06-29 08:36:52)


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#52 2007-07-05 07:57:18

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

There is undoubtedly MUCH illusion (follow the money) in the post-modern "Buddhist" world.  That's why coming home to the breath with shugyo (with zazen/shamata/vipashyana) is SO important.  Of course, one norm - in place since the time of Shakyamuni himself - is that of the student seeking and receiving teachings from a qualified master.  Reading books and using post-modern discrimination, based in anger, just ain't the right approach.

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#53 2007-07-05 13:29:32

Lorka
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Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Somewhat long ramble, please forgive.

I would agree with most of what your say Harazda.  It is indeed ideally desirable that an aspiring student should fnd a qualified master.  The problem, of course, comes with how to know what it is you want to learn, and how to find someone trustworthy (and qualified) to help you get there (i.e. the so called master). 

I for one am skeptical of organized systems that propose to impart metaphysical or existential/spiritual results.  They say when the student is ready the teacher will appear, but this is a red herring if ever there was one.  When the student is truly ready, they will have gone past the need of a teacher.  They will have jumped over the void of bewilderment and arrived unknowlingly at the doorsteps of their own enlightenment. 

One of the things that has long attracted me to Zen in particular (though I am by no means a practictioner, which perhaps makes me Zen against my will), is its ability to cut past the BS and help tune down the chaos and static that fills our minds. 

The big lesson of Zen, as I understand it, is learning how to shut up, to turn off the noise, and learn how to really listen.   When we are able to listen we can then finally begin to learn.  This learning to listen (and listening so that we can learn) can be a painful and humbling experience that takes many years, but who should be most qualified to teach it?  Arent teachers yet another obstacle on the path to ourselves.  Personally I would be very suspicious of anyone with such pride as to call themselves (or allow themselves to be called) a master.  One should always be a student, and preferably a student of ones self.  Is that not enough? Is that not the whole point of it all?

For me, this is why any single psycho-spiritual framework has never been sufficient.  When cursed with a questioning mind it is difficult to surrender oneself to any one system of belief (even a system which rejects systemazation such as Zen). 

I am silly enough to think that if we just shut up and listen and allow others to do the same that we would find those things we seek within ourselves.  Enlightenment cannot be taught, bought, or traded.  You will not find it from Sutras or Salesman or anything else. 

But don't take this for nihilism.  I truly admire the search for self; for the authentic self, which is in a sense, no self at all.  Not being part of any religion what would you pick? How would you choose?  We have a veritable buffett to select from, and perhaps all this choice confuses the appetite.  To pick one is to be defined and define to ones self through sameness and difference.  Not to pick one is also to be defined.  What the answer is, I have no idea.   My own spiritual intuition tells me to steer clear of systems and teachers and masters and paths that lead us away in search of what is already eternally present.  Zen seems like a good set of lessons, but we must beware not to take too much pride in our lessons and our knowledge, as we often tend to use them to belittle the ignorance of others and to make ourselves seem wise. 

And if the simple lesson of Zen is to bring us to an enlightened awareness of the 'now' by stripping away the pretense of the ego and turning off the noise within, then I would suggest we heed that good advice, chuck it it all (including silly wonderful zen) and simply be.  What does a perfect child know of zen or christianity, or any other system from the most orthodox to heterodox?  Simple answer: "nothing".   To be innocent in the senses and to truly be set free it seems (to this confused soul) that we must throw away our systems, and recognize them simply as so many unnecessary toys and props. 

Forget finding teachers and paths and enlightenment and a hughty (if secretive) pride in what we know and don't know.  Forget finding the one true truth, or even the truth that is true for you.  Is'nt truth a most wonderful posession and attatchement.  A truth can grow heavy.  Perhaps we  should be rid even of our cherished truth in order to be free.  What I get from Zen leads me away from Zen to myself. 

Simple advice: shut up and listen.  You don't need teachers for that. 

Forgive the ramble.  I should heed my own advice and go find my shakuhachi.

Last edited by Lorka (2007-07-05 13:51:52)


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#54 2007-07-05 14:28:34

Kerry
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From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

I would like to title my ramble 'Zen at War with the Self'.
To Harazda and Lorka, I agree with a lot of what you say also, but I would like to speak in support of the good zen teacher. I was fortunate to have been introduced to and guided in zazen by Osamu Rozan Yoshida when I lived in St. Louis back in the mid 1980's. That experience has proved to be invaluable to me. To have had him actually correct my posture with his own hands all those many times and told 'to wake up and open your eyes', the phrase, "you must change your way of thinking and see this" and his personal take on just being, of course can't be substituted. I was young, eager and stupid back then. Now, I'm older, eager and stupid still, but four years ago it was sober up or die for me and all those teachings and interactions came right back. I'm on my own with it now, but like I said, I've been fortunate to have had a good zen teacher like Yoshida in the beginning. -kerry


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#55 2007-07-05 15:42:37

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Lorka, I understand your point and, though what I think doesn't matter, the skepticism of which you speak is very appropriate, in my opinion.  One should always be honest with oneself, and never lose touch with one's intuitive base.

Everyone's so concerned about cults and cultish mind control and profiteering.  And as I've said before, it's very easy, popular and safe to believe in nothing... and get nowhere as a result.

That being said, I know that you don't even need a teacher to get very far ahead in Zen.  This I know regardless of what I said earlier.  My most important Zen teacher was the dried-out carcass of a spider which blew across my deck in March of 1981.  At that moment, the "bottom broke out of the pail."  Fact is, there are no set rules.  Whether a person "believes" in karma or not, we all have seen that people come into life with varying talents.  Some people have a talent for Zen awakening, some for Zen chicanery!  I recently went to a local "traditional" zendo of the White Plum lineage of Maezumi Roshi.  My impression of this place was that they were all excellently-trained game players.  They sat outside huffing cigarettes before their services, and on the way home I was driving behind their leader who was in a white pickup truck... cigarette smoke billowing out of the window... followed by a still-lit cigarette being thrown out the window by this Zen priest.

Now some here may say, "So what?"  Well, I feel that Zen folks ought to practice from the heart.  Zen should be a path of heart in the real world, which should be respected.  All that had happened in their zendo during my visit was a lot of intellectual joke-cracking.  I couldn't quite see why everyone was there.  The biggest message I got there was about not having a "Zen face," but instead that one should regard everything without any seriousness.  Of course, they knew I'm a Tibetan practitioner, so they may've been in a particularly abusive and pretentious mode... though I don't think so.

Anyway, I understand your skepticism and dismay... but I guess I'd say keep the heart open and in the moment... there is nothing else, really.  I think that Buddhism itself only exists in the sleeping mind... but - relatively speaking - we should glean as much guidance as we can from tradition.  Buddhism reveals certain levels of payoff to the successful student, and the only way to realize that payoff is to undertake the path.  Stay sharp, and you should stay out of harm's way.  There is MUCH to gain... though what one defines as "MUCH" may mean very little to another whose inclinations and propensities are in another direction.  I think a good teacher should be able to spot each student's special needs.

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#56 2007-07-05 16:34:34

jb
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Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Hi.

Twenty-five years ago I first heard the image of the cup.  A student receiving a teaching should avoid the three faults of the cup or vessel.  Don't be a cup turned upsice-down because nothing will get into the cup.  Don't be a cup with a hole in it because no matter what you put into the cup, it will run out.  Don't be a cup that has dirt or poison in it because whatever you put into the cup will be dirty or poisonous.  The good student listening to a teaching should be like a clean cup, right-side up without a hole in the bottom.

I know, I know.  There is no cup, but I can poison even that idea with my dualism.  Nondualism only sounds easy.

jb

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#57 2007-10-23 03:36:13

KODOAN.COM
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From: NORTH BEND, OREGON
Registered: 2007-01-16
Posts: 24
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Fantastic thread!

It seems that many people look for a "way" that is "pure" or "perfect" which usually means that it fits into a common romantic ideal within their society. 

Alot of my friends who practice zen/buddhism have (eventually) reached that point where they delve a little into its history and come up with "imperfections".  Sometimes they are crushed and turn to something else that is hopefully more "perfect" and sometimes they learn to accept that there are many good and bad things in quite a few different "ways".

It's when they open their eyes to both the good and bad that they can truly improve.  As long as people remain blissfully ignorant about what they're doing, they won't be able to go forward.  Pretending to be perfect is not the same as being perfect.  "I'm not a Buddha but I play one on tv" doesn't work.  There is no "fake it till you make it".

Personally, I'm still struggling with the imperfections of the world - including my own.  It seems that the more aware that I become and the more that I can see into other peoples' hearts, the less I like humanity.  The rest of the animals on the planet seem to behave almost as badly. 

How can I possibly have compassion for my fellow man when I see all of the evil that they do?  Which, by the way, continually affects my life in some form or another.  Sure, it's easy to love thy neighbor when you think thy neighbor is a good person (or attractive) but what if they're an asshole?  or a child rapist? 

Go to the worst, crime infested neighborhood in your area and look around.  Can you embrace these people that are (more than likely) waiting for the chance to harm you?  Cultivating this compassion is a struggle.  It is a war.

As for war; embrace it and help it to evolve.

In all things there is war and peace.  You can call it "conflict and resolution" if you like or the movement between "yin and yang".  It doesn't matter.  Everything in the cosmos is in a state of "flux".  Everything is moving and changing.  This is very much an ongoing battle that is resolved and then begins again.  It is a war.

Usually, when people talk of war and peace, they are referring to the unevolved form that involves guns and bullets, or bows and arrows, or even sticks and stones.  However, there are many other ways to talk of war.  My body is constantly at war with itself; so is my mind.  These and other "higher battles" are the ones that will help us the most. 

There is nothing unnatural about war.  It might even be the very thing that defines life.

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#58 2007-10-23 04:30:05

dstone
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From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

KODOAN.COM wrote:

As for war; embrace it and help it to evolve.

Sure, if you like, but are you being short sighted?  Since the end is important in all things, why not embrace the end of war?

KODOAN.COM wrote:

There is nothing unnatural about war.

Agreed.

KODOAN.COM wrote:

It might even be the very thing that defines life.

"Death", more than simply "war", is something that helps define all life, in all situations.  War is just one narrow path to death.  An interesting one, for sure.  But not worth embracing any more than, say, falling from high places or drowning.  Those are also very important, natural, interesting paths to death that all animals engage in. 

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#59 2007-10-24 03:56:26

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Well well…

As my teacher would say your logic sounds like a hollow casket.

KODOAN.COM wrote:

Personally, I'm still struggling with the imperfections of the world - including my own.  It seems that the more aware that I become and the more that I can see into other peoples' hearts, the less I like humanity.  The rest of the animals on the planet seem to behave almost as badly.

Then this means you are still full of dualities and that your brain is still not at rest. The monkey is still playing with the horse so it seems.

When you talk about your own imperfections it is very strange that you seem to claim that you are a Rinzai priest and that from what your website says you are also ordaining people.

http://kodoan.com/WHATISKODOAN.html

http://kodoan.com/KODOGENKI.html

When following your logical path it makes me wonder if you ever really studied Zen under a legitimate teacher. Who ever gave you the right to ordain people and have your own lineage? Sure you can say there is no laws the prevent this and you are right. The only issue is that you will be making yourself a laughing stock by taking the route you just started. If you ever studied Rinzai and even knew of Rinzai your Resume would not look the way it does. Come one most of your martial arts lineage does not mean a thing plus it just plainly looks as if you are trying to baffle people with a bunch of stuff you have studied. In Japan if you ever met a real teacher his resume would show maybe 2 to 3 arts that he masters and that’s it even if he had other stuff under his hat he would not be slapping it all over the place like you are doing and especially priding yourself in doing bouncer work detailing your exploits ((BEGAN BOUNCING AT CAFÉ ARIZONA – SOUTH SEATTLE’S ROUGHEST HIP HOP
GANGSTER BAR.  SECURITY LEADER OF ONE OF TWO SIX MAN SECURITY TEAMS
INSIDE OF THE CLUB.  TWO ARMED SECURITY STAYED OUTSIDE IN THE PARKING
LOT BECAUSE SHOTS WERE OCCASIONALLY FIRED AT BOUNCERS ON WEEKENDS. 
20 TO 30 MAN BRAWLS WERE COMMON.  BROKE UP FIGHTS EVERY SINGLE
NIGHT.  MANY MARTIAL ARTS TECHNIQUES WERE FIELD TESTED HERE.))

Also what sounds quite funny is also you Dharma name Kodo Genki what are the Kanji for that??? If it is what I think it is no real teacher would give you that type of a name. Plus what is even more strange you called your organization/dojo Kodoan Hummm… well if the 2 first kanji are the same ones as the ones in your Dharma name this surely is total bad taste and some sort of a cult of personality. Nobody would actually call their dojo with the same kanji as their dharma name.

KODOAN.COM wrote:

How can I possibly have compassion for my fellow man when I see all of the evil that they do?  Which, by the way, continually affects my life in some form or another.  Sure, it's easy to love thy neighbor when you think thy neighbor is a good person (or attractive) but what if they're an asshole?  or a child rapist? 

Go to the worst, crime infested neighborhood in your area and look around.  Can you embrace these people that are (more than likely) waiting for the chance to harm you?  Cultivating this compassion is a struggle.  It is a war.

Ha please don’t mix apple and oranges the logic you are talking is just pure mechanics and does really show some immaturity in your studies.

KODOAN.COM wrote:

As for war; embrace it and help it to evolve.

Truly the words of a master.

KODOAN.COM wrote:

My body is constantly at war with itself; so is my mind.  These and other "higher battles" are the ones that will help us the most. 

There is nothing unnatural about war.  It might even be the very thing that defines life.

Your whole war and fighting them that you have in here seems to tell me you never grew out of your military experience. Until you resolve this your Dharma bus is bound for nowhere.


Ok so I went all out on you. But this is all that can be said since your taste of Zen and your backgrounds just tastes like mock chicken. I do sincerely hope this will serve to reform your ways and at least continue on the right path of just studying and not just wanting to be somebody you are not.

Just like Rinzai said be a man of NO RANK

Being a priest/monk takes studies and by studies I mean a lot. Its not just playing around. If you were really a priest you would not have the time to teach martial arts cut bamboo to make flutes and study Zen and teach it. It just is this way YOU CANNOT BE A JACK OF ALL TRADES.

Last edited by Gishin (2007-10-24 03:59:14)


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#60 2007-10-24 17:11:45

KODOAN.COM
Member
From: NORTH BEND, OREGON
Registered: 2007-01-16
Posts: 24
Website

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Dstone,

What I was trying to get at was that I saw war and peace as an endless cycle.  Also, I often think of war and peace as a kind of dialectic; thesis + antithesis = synthesis.  Then the synthesis becomes the new thesis.  Not just shooting and bombs and such but "I'm hungry + what's in the fridge = Ah! peanut butter and jelly! + Wait, is that chocolate cake? = .....

I'm trying to elevate my war to mental and emotional battles that will make me a better person.

Plus some other ramblings going through my mind at the time.

Gishin,

WOW!

I never expected that response!  My goal was not to upset anyone, just take part in a discussion.  I apologize if my post upset you.

by the way:

Yes, I AM still full of dualities and my mind is not always at rest; I'm not Buddha just a Buddhist.

There are many imperfect Rinzai priests but I am not one of them.  I practice an off-shoot of Rinzai. 

Here is my teacher:  http://boundlessmindzen.org/   

I am still learning but he's taught me many valuable lessons.  He's very big on sincerity and honesty.  He's always told me not to pretend I'm something that I'm not - just strive to become a better person.

So, what makes a "legitimate teacher"?  Will he be a man of no rank?  Is this the only one that I can learn from?  (wouldn't that be a cult of personality?)

Also, who gives me the right to practice freedom of religion?  I thought it was the warriors...

My martial arts lineage means a great deal to me.  My masters are impeccable warriors and their teachings have guided my life for over three decades.  I am honored to follow them.

Buddha himself was born into the royal warrior caste (Kshatrya) and "conquered" all demons before he reached enlightenment.  Boddhidharma was also Kshatrya (the third son of king Suganda) and managed to find time to teach the Shaolin monks his "18 hands of Lo-han" (which became Shaolin kung-fu) and then create ch'an Buddhism.  Boy! talk about a Jack-of-all-trades! 

Perhaps only warriors can achieve enlightenment? 

Wasn't Watazumi a soldier in Japan's Imperial Army during WWII?  and didn't he have MANY teachers (martial arts, zen, shakuhachi)?

My "curriculum vitae" is not for boasting and I don't quote it anywhere else.  Its purpose is for my students to understand me better.  It is completely honest and fact-checkable.  If they are interested in learning from me after seeing who I am and I am interested in teaching them after seeing who they are, then we begin lessons.

As for Cafe' Arizona, you should check it out sometime.  Tell Tony Seo at the door I said hi.  This'll give you an idea what to expect:  http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/119 … ona30.html

I never claim to be enlightened or perfect, but I AM seriously dangerous.  I'm striving to be an impeccable warrior but trust me, I've got dangerous down.

By the way, my Roshi (if I may call him that) gave me my Dharma name.  I thoroughly enjoy it.  It means "ancient path, full of energy".  I think he's a real teacher even though we don't see eye-to-eye on everything.

Anybody who's met me could not honestly say that I"ve got what it takes to make a cult leader.

Interesting... if what I wrote was stupid or worthless, why not just roll your eyes and move on?


P.s  Ow! Watch it with the Keishaku!

Last edited by KODOAN.COM (2007-10-26 05:47:38)

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#61 2007-10-24 17:40:39

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

zen thugs
  settle their illusions.
who's watching the rice?


-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#62 2007-10-24 18:40:27

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Gishin wrote:

... not just wanting to be somebody you are not.

Pretty difficult being someone you are not ... but many of us will die trying.

I was recently looking through an international didjeridu forum to see if that world is anything like the the international shakuhachi world and, lo, and behold, I found some remarkable if disconcerting similarities:

http://forum.serioussticks.com/viewtopic.php?t=427

Westerners donning loincloths and painting themselves brown and then over-painting that with traditional Australian Aboriginal tribal art.

Instructive.

Last edited by Chris Moran (2007-10-24 19:09:08)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#63 2007-10-24 21:19:08

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Chris Moran wrote:

Westerners donning loincloths and painting themselves brown and then over-painting that with traditional Australian Aboriginal tribal art.

Instructive.

Whew!! I'm glad I practice shakuhachi in old jeans and a t-shirt!.....Didn't Michelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel wearing a loincloth?smile ....Now, he was a bad mutha;)


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#64 2007-10-25 07:37:50

Harry
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From: Dublin, Ireland.
Registered: 2006-04-24
Posts: 221
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Dear Kodoan.com,

Thank you for sharing the insights into your nature that you have found. And congratulations on avoiding idealism; surely that's just another way of beating up yourself and other people. This is encouraging.

I hope that your practice of zazen is fully expressed and that your various mental 'warring parties' (such as we all have) can become harmless. Who could defeat the warrior who has already defeated himself?

I bow to our common teachers every day.

Regards,

Harry.


"As God once said, and I think rightly..." (Margaret Thatcher)

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#65 2007-10-25 07:57:04

Lorka
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Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

there is nothing more discouraging to students than to watch their teachers bicker.  It makes them seem more human, and more flawed.  It shows perhaps that beneath every calm mask lies a seething bubbling chaos, as it is with us all. 

possibly, maybe, maybe not.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#66 2007-10-25 09:55:28

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Zen at war indeed.

There is a natural antipathy between those who have learned to exploit our huckster culture -- sometimes to good ends -- and those who see themselves as "defenders of the tradition." Internet communication is mostly stacked in favor of the eager beaver "individualists" and "spiritual entrepreneurs": here you cannot FEEL the calm presence of a teacher steeped in a tradition but instead rely on disembodied pixels to excite your yearning -- even your yearning for embodied peace! So I think those who have put in the time, those who have some wisdom gained from hard experience, may over-react trying to get a point across, a point that's almost impossible to relay in this medium, one that relies on example and long stretches of quiet and direct in-person transmission rather than on the pro-"individualist" verbal formulas our culture hands out in an attempt to make us more rabid consumers.

Plus it's mainly men arguing here, and men are simply BUILT for pissing contests. In so many ways that's what this board (like so many internet venues) is about, false "versuses": ji-ari v. ji-nashi, tradition v. individualism, meditative v. musical, etc. etc. Look in the mirror and see Rocky Balboa (well, in some ways!). In the midst of all of this there's also some very good information, mainly the clearly factual stuff.

Last edited by nyokai (2007-10-25 10:09:43)

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#67 2007-10-25 10:35:56

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Nyokai, you're articulations are greatly appreciated.  It's a good idea to regularly sweep up all the "disembodied pixels" of cyber-ephemera and escort them to the circular file of experience with the dustpan of attentiveness.  This moment ever now awake in depth... and an everlasting cosmic giggle.

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#68 2007-10-26 20:21:41

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Lorka wrote:

there is nothing more discouraging to students than to watch their teachers bicker.  It makes them seem more human, and more flawed.  It shows perhaps that beneath every calm mask lies a seething bubbling chaos, as it is with us all.

The lesson here may be that we should be a little more discriminating when deciding who to regard as a teacher. The web is full of self-appointed authorities insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is foolish and/or evil. They have as much or as little credibility as you grant them.

Regarding our bickering masters here, are they evil? I have no reason to think so.

Are they wrong-headed fools? Again, no; they share the same concerns as many of us, and often state the same reactions anyone might have to those concerns.

Are they a bit full of themselves? Goodness Gracious, Great Balls of Ego!

Clue--the more you toot your own horn, the narrower your base of support appears.


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#69 2007-10-26 23:01:40

Horst Xenmeister
Shiham
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-26
Posts: 69
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

The living spirit of Zen is beyond all expectations. To Realizing bier und wurst. There in a sentence is completely in contrast to the subtle nature; Not prevent the use of words such as Makeshifts, schnitzel und schnapps but This has limits. Of course, after the Randomly Talk is meaningless. Nevertheless, the matter is not one-sided, , So that we temporarily set path in the way The lessons, in dealing with people like two fight sensei.

Xen Meister different Zen Master but same way. Best way.

Last edited by Horst Xenmeister (2007-10-26 23:04:39)


i am horst

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#70 2007-10-27 00:32:12

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

rpowers wrote:

Are they a bit full of themselves? Goodness Gracious, Great Balls of Ego!

Clue--the more you toot your own horn, the narrower your base of support appears.

The issue and discussion is quite simple here.

In Zen being Obaku, Rinzai or Soto under the Japanese, Chinese or Korean branches when one gets ordained it does not give you the power to ordain other people and why? Because you are still new and need to get experience in learning the sutras doing the proper ceremonies knowing how to handle temple affairs and also how to do dharma talks etc. In other words you need to have proper education PERIOD. Then later on you might be given the right to open a Zen dojo or center depending on your situation etc but we are still not talking about being a teacher or a person that has the right to ordain. Anyhow later on if someone is the Jushoku of a temple that still does not mean he is a Roshi.

Now the main issue with Zen here in North-America is that most fools that decide to play with it and get themselves ordained in their own made up hodgepodge lineage is going to say that Zen transcends scripture transcends ranks and concept. Big freaking deal! This just means they use this fact as an excuse to their own incompetence and lack of true knowledge in Buddhism to baffle other.

Seriously any ordained monks In Zen being Obaku, Rinzai or Soto under the Japanese, Chinese or Korean branches regardless of their personal abilities WILL have some sort of FORMAL knowledge of what the heck they are doing or what they are talking about. And why?

Would you go see a dentist that does not know what he is talking about?

Would you accept that a University teacher has a fake diploma?

Would you accept that a Catholic priest self ordained himself and made his own bogus church?

What is the issue here is that by accepting and letting unscrupulous individuals play with Buddhism the way they do will only serve to lower the quality of the teachings available to the general public.

Anyway it should be easy enough with basic common knowledge to see that the KODOAN thing is just a fake lineage based on nothing more than self promotion.

Last edited by Gishin (2007-10-27 00:33:02)


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#71 2007-10-27 07:41:17

marek
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From: Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-03-02
Posts: 187
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Hi,

I have been sitting zazen a few years in a Soto dojo where there is no master. My feeling is that zazen is very much a solitary thing. I cannot think of how a master would help me in my practice, apart from from giving me advices on my personal problems, probably Im wrong there... But, could you tell me where exactly?

Thanks,

Marek


"what are you gawping at!?"
                                          Uchiyama Roshi

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#72 2007-10-27 07:49:45

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
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From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Yes you are mostly correct on that for Zazen as long as you had good guidance from a real teacher at first. For Zen itself you can read books study etc,. alone its all good. But when it comes to say you are a teacher and that ordain people its a totally different ball game you need to go to school for that.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#73 2007-10-27 08:05:01

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Gishin wrote:

Would you accept that a Catholic priest self ordained himself and made his own bogus church?

Lots of people accept that. They're called "Protestants". wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#74 2007-10-27 09:27:25

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Tairaku wrote:

Gishin wrote:

Would you accept that a Catholic priest self ordained himself and made his own bogus church?

Lots of people accept that. They're called "Protestants". wink

I like it thats a good one smile

But still protestants still have to go to some form of school.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#75 2007-10-27 10:25:17

Kerry
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From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: "Zen at War" (moved)

Horst Xenmeister wrote:

The living spirit of Zen is beyond all expectations.

...The Xenmeister has spoken.


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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