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#1 2006-03-18 22:44:44

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

I'm slowly learning the piece Shizukesa, and there's tounging in something like the last third. I can't do that as yet, so I'm wondering if it's okay to play it publicly someday without the tounging, in case I never get it down. I wouldn't usually change a piece like that, but I like the piece a lot, and want to play it.

Any opinions on this?

-Eddie


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#2 2006-03-19 11:52:03

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

Dont you think it is a good idea to fully understand a piece, technically, structually and so on before you consider performing it in public?


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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#3 2006-03-19 16:20:55

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

I see that I didn't say something important in my original post: I don't have the music for this piece, I'm just learning it off the "Komuso" CD by Seldin. What I was wondering was if the sheet music itself calls for the tounging, or is that Seldin's interpretation?

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#4 2006-03-19 17:17:38

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

Ronnie Seldin wrote it, so it's a pretty good guess that it's his interpretation.

The technique he is using in that segment of the piece is called 'tamane', and it's usually done by vibrating the glottis in the back of the throat (as in gargling...). Some players do it with the tip of the tongue instead, but I think that is much more difficult, since the tip of the tongue is then interfering directly with the airstream near the lips.

In the case of Shizukesa, Ronnie is able to slow the vibration cycle down quite a bit--it's more often done at a higher speed. Good effect there...

eB

Last edited by edosan (2006-03-19 17:44:32)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2006-03-20 07:55:49

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

edosan wrote:

Ronnie Seldin wrote it, so it's a pretty good guess that it's his interpretation.

The technique he is using in that segment of the piece is called 'tamane', and it's usually done by vibrating the glottis in the back of the throat (as in gargling...). Some players do it with the tip of the tongue instead, but I think that is much more difficult, since the tip of the tongue is then interfering directly with the airstream near the lips.

In the case of Shizukesa, Ronnie is able to slow the vibration cycle down quite a bit--it's more often done at a higher speed. Good effect there...

eB

Really? I can do flutter tongueing and not do the glottal one. I've heard that most people can do one or the other. Other people say anyone should be able to do both.

How many people here can do one or the other and how many can do both? Neither?

Eddie, if you continue to teach yourself advanced pieces like this, when you start taking lessons you will have a lot of bad habits and techniques to unlearn. Most people learn basics before advanced pieces.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#6 2006-03-20 09:14:32

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

I seem to get in my own way when trying to do the flutter tongue 'tamane', so I haven't put as much effort into it--the glottal one works well for me, though.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#7 2006-03-20 09:25:49

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

Regarding the premature 'learning' of advanced pieces:

A while back when I was admiring honkyoku from afar, and still confining my playing mostly to minyo (which I still love), I attempted to teach myself a piece off a Riley Lee album ('Ryuhei', from 'Mountain Valley'). I had a flute of the same length as that on the recording, and I new enough notation to somewhat transcribe the fingerings, but I was still pretty ignorant of how nayashi and pitch-bending worked.

What came out on the page was a mish-mash of VERY complex 'notation' which was far more difficult to follow than it need have been. Fortunately, I gave up on that piece for a while, content to just continue listening to it. Later, when I realized how things actually worked, it was a revelation how 'easy' it actually was to play through the piece--still a challenge, but doable, sensible.

Motto:

It's easy if you know how...

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2006-03-20 09:52:43

Travis Winegar
Member
From: Columbia, MO
Registered: 2005-10-31
Posts: 74
Website

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

Tairaku wrote:

How many people here can do one or the other and how many can do both? Neither?

The glottal version has always been inate for me.  As a trumpet player in middle school, I realized I could do this quite easily.  Flutter tounging has never been that easy, and I have yet to successfully employ it in music.  I can, however, with a ton of concentration, force out some fluttering occassionally.  This leads me to believe that if really wanted to work the ability, I could probably get it to come out. 

If you can speak a language that requires rolling your r's, you could always tap into that part of your brain to a flutter tonguing jump start smile


"As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw." Shunryu Suzuki

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#9 2006-03-20 10:35:59

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

Hello all,

I was trying the flutter tongueing the other day, just to fool around a bit as I don't play any piece that needs it and I could get something (a ver limited "something" I must say) using the tongue. Being Spanish, as Travis mentioned, I find it quite easy to move the tip of the tongue in that manner. But also, as Ed mentioned above the tongue gets on the way of the air stream and is a bit of a disaster (I guess there must be a way around this). I've never tried the glottal one but it looks quite challenging, to say the least...


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

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#10 2006-03-21 13:48:22

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

I cannot flutter my tongue so i taught myself to use my glottal area. Took about 3 years from when i decided to learn this technique till i could use it with real control.
I once read that using the tongue to flutter, such as in the spanish "rr" sound, is something that one can or cannot do, apparently because of genetics. I was told you cannot teach this to yourself. Is this true?
I have yet to find any wind players who can do both. Perhaps Evan Parker?

phil


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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#11 2006-03-21 21:48:25

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

I can do the flutter tongueing but cannot do the glottal one; haven't given up yet though.   Kakizakai sensei recommends gargling with a tiny bit of water first  to get the feeling of the glottal technique.

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#12 2006-03-21 22:05:48

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

philipgelb wrote:

.
I once read that using the tongue to flutter, such as in the spanish "rr" sound, is something that one can or cannot do, apparently because of genetics. I was told you cannot teach this to yourself. Is this true?


phil

It IS a fact that whether one can roll one's tongue lengthwise (like a hot dog bun protruding from the mouth...) or not, is genetically determined, so there could also be a genetic connection to flutter/not flutter.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#13 2006-03-22 00:18:21

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

Tairaku wrote:

How many people here can do one or the other and how many can do both? Neither?

I can do both, although the flutter tonguing comes more naturally.  I started flutter tonguing with the Native American flute because it is a fairly common (and overused) technique for that instrument.  It is harder to utilise with a non-fipple flute like a shakuhachi or side-blown flute, because it interferes with the embouchure.  Once you have done it with the NAF you have enough idea of what it should sound like to get it working with non-fipple flutes.

The glottal one should be easier because it doesn't affect the embouchure, but it is more difficult to describe.  Once you get the feeling of doing it the first time it is not that hard.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#14 2006-03-22 18:06:40

James
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 2005-12-03
Posts: 23

Re: Playing "Shizukesa" without tounging: okay or not?

philipgelb wrote:

I have yet to find any wind players who can do both.

I can do both, though neither to my satisfaction.

The tip of the tongue comes more easily for me, and I used it on a silver flute (and Spanish class) many years ago in High School. It sounds too harsh on a shakuhachi (in my opinion) so I've been gradually working on my uvula. I'm sure it's just a matter of practice.

I attended a workshop on Koten Sugomori from Yoshio Kurahashi where he said that his teacher said that some parts should be played tip-of-the-tongue and some parts with the uvula flutter. Alas, Kurahashi couldn't do them both. (I think he said he's a tip-of-the-tongue person.)

James

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