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#1 2009-11-04 12:55:36

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Functional utaguchi design?

Without getting into the pro / no utaguchi discussion, here is an attempt to design an utaguchi which is as functional as possible. Kinko and Tozan designs leave exposed bamboo edges which sometimes cause problems. This design covers the entire bamboo blowing edge. Perhaps more functional. Perhaps not. roll

http://www.mujitsu.com/images/funtionalutaguchi.JPG

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#2 2009-11-04 13:46:47

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Mujitsu wrote:

Kinko and Tozan designs leave exposed bamboo edges which sometimes cause problems. This design covers the entire bamboo blowing edge. Perhaps more functional.

That's interesting? May I, a shakuhachi making amateur, who has never put in an inlay in any of my own shakuhachi, ask you what kind of problems Kinko and Tozan inlays where bamboo edges are exposed cause? Just out of interest! smile

The new design looks great! Wow! I really love what creative human beings experiment with...


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#3 2009-11-04 14:51:35

Mujitsu
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From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Kiku Day wrote:

That's interesting? May I, a shakuhachi making amateur, who has never put in an inlay in any of my own shakuhachi, ask you what kind of problems Kinko and Tozan inlays where bamboo edges are exposed cause? Just out of interest! smile

Kiku,

I've repaired a number of shakuhachi with cracks that start at the corners of the Kinko utaguchi. I suppose it is possible that these cracks could appear regardless of the utaguchi. However, my hunch is that anytime a different material is introduced to bamboo, especially at such a sharp angle, the odds of something going wrong increases.

http://www.mujitsu.com/images/utakinko.JPG

Also, I always thought it was odd and inefficient that most utaguchi designs leave part of the bamboo blowing edge exposed. Again, it seems that joining two different materials at such a critical, turbulent spot increases the chance of irregular wear and cracks. I've noticed this type of thing with utaguchi repairs as well.

I prefer the simplicity of no utaguchi at all but got to thinking if one were to use an utaguchi, what might be a more efficient way to do it? And also a way that would require less invasive repair if it is needed later. Let's give it thirty years and we'll see!

Beats workin' for a living! big_smile

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#4 2009-11-04 16:37:21

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Since it serves no purpose other than decoration, why not just use a Sharpie and draw it on there? wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2009-11-04 16:54:25

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Tairaku wrote:

Since it serves no purpose other than decoration, why not just use a Sharpie and draw it on there? wink

How about cashew lacquer?

http://www.yungflutes.com/ebayphotos/twowwoodb.jpg

Looks good Ken!


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#6 2009-11-04 17:05:35

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Tairaku wrote:

Since it serves no purpose other than decoration, why not just use a Sharpie and draw it on there? wink

Uh oh. I think you're going to stir up Ed with that one! yikes

Nice bow tie Perry!

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#7 2009-11-04 17:34:06

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Mujitsu wrote:

Uh oh. I think you're going to stir up Ed with that one! yikes

!

I have searched far and wide and can't find a good reason for an utaguchi inlay! wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#8 2009-11-04 18:52:29

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Tairaku wrote:

Mujitsu wrote:

Uh oh. I think you're going to stir up Ed with that one! yikes

!

I have searched far and wide and can't find a good reason for an utaguchi inlay! wink

No comment.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#9 2009-11-04 20:24:46

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 232

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

I like it Ken!

I have a question, though I'm not too sure of how to ask it...here goes.

When I look at your photos, I was wondering, do you need to make the angle into the bore a little bit shallower than a traditional kinko/tozan inlay so you can increase the gluing area since there are less inclusive surfaces/angles in the bamboo channels to hold the inlay?

I hope that question makes sense...

It is a smart innovation that respects the bamboo (if you must do an inlay) because it is less invasive (dosen't cut so deeply towards the outside of the skin especially with a kinko inlay).

I agree with Brian. They are just decoration, and urushi, CA glue or another hard coating that will soak into the bamboo will give you just as hard of an edge. The bonus is, there is no inlay to knock out.

Esthetically though, it is very elegant...and functional!

Last edited by Taldaran (2009-11-05 03:47:53)


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#10 2009-11-05 12:08:51

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Taldaran wrote:

do you need to make the angle into the bore a little bit shallower than a traditional kinko/tozan inlay so you can increase the gluing area since there are less inclusive surfaces/angles in the bamboo channels to hold the inlay?

Christopher,

I get what you mean. There wasn't a conscious decision to make the angle steeper than a kinko or tozan inlay. Actually, the gluing surfaces are similar to a tozan inlay. It's easier to imagine how a tozan inlay wedges itself in with two gluing surfaces. (front and back) The full arc inlay is the same although it appears there is only one gluing surface. I think it's always wise to use as steep an angle as possible regardless of utaguchi style.

Taldaran wrote:

They are just decoration, and urushi, CA glue or another hard coating that will soak into the bamboo will give you just as hard of an edge.

Tairaku wrote:

I have searched far and wide and can't find a good reason for an utaguchi inlay! wink

I didn't mean to steer things in this direction, but since we're here...

Shakuhachi has a way of revealing the sometimes wide valley between theory and practice. The conventional argument for an inlay is that the bamboo fibers will wear down faster than a harder material. This is true to some extent, but in my experience, not enough to make it relevant. From a functional standpoint, there is simply less to go wrong by leaving the blowing edge alone.

However, many players want inlays and expect them from makers. Since it's not the end of the world either way, and flutemakers need to pay rent too, it can't hurt to play along sometimes.  wink

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#11 2009-11-05 16:33:52

Kouu
Member
Registered: 2009-07-21
Posts: 25

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Speaking as a beginner, the one shakuhachi with an inlay that I have is so much easier to get a sound from than the natural ones I have. The inlay is very thin and sharp and I'm guessing it splits the airstream more easily or is more forgiving? Not sure why, but it's definitely easier to play. Even more so than my Yuu.

I suppose it's a non-issue for experienced players but I thought I'd mention it for any other beginners out there.

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#12 2009-11-06 00:12:27

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Kouu wrote:

Speaking as a beginner, the one shakuhachi with an inlay that I have is so much easier to get a sound from than the natural ones I have. The inlay is very thin and sharp and I'm guessing it splits the airstream more easily or is more forgiving? Not sure why, but it's definitely easier to play. Even more so than my Yuu.

I suppose it's a non-issue for experienced players but I thought I'd mention it for any other beginners out there.

Rick,

Thanks for contributing. I can understand that the utaguchi might play a part in making your particular flute easier to play when compared to your other flutes. However, if that is the case, I would respectfully suggest that it is the exception and not the rule. Expand your observation to many hundreds of shakuhachi and I suspect you may come to the conclusion that an utaguchi per se plays no part in making a flute easier to play for a beginner or experienced player.


Michal wrote:

One "flying bird" design idea:

Nice, Michal! Let's say we call this the "Albatross!"

http://www.mujitsu.com/images/albatross.jpg

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#13 2009-11-06 07:37:04

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Can we said that nowadays one big factor which contribute to cracks and other damages to the shakuhachi, and of course of the utaguchi, is the the person who take care of them?


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#14 2009-11-06 08:45:48

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

Can we said that nowadays one big factor which contribute to cracks and other damages to the shakuhachi, and of course of the utaguchi, is the the person who take care of them?

Somewhat, but the bamboo has a mind of its own and usually rebels against invasive things such as utachuchi inlays, ji in the bore and nakasuke. All three of those cause most of the cracks and damages by themselves. This is my experience from owning hundreds of shakuhachi over the years. The more man made ingredients added to the bamboo exponentially increases the likelihood of damage. This is due to the unequal expansion and contraction of these materials due to humidity changes. Bamboo, ji and joints do not respond to weather in harmony.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#15 2009-11-06 10:55:41

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

fouw wrote:

(OK let me get serious for once)

What do makers say about these thoughts (of mine):

I believe if a shahuhachi, jiari, jinuri or jinashi, two parts or one, is made by a really skilled craftsman using very well cured & aged bamboo and owned and played by a person who knows how to take care of it, it never needs to crack. Unless it is played in Death Valley, lost in the Gobi Desert or otherwise subjected to extremes.
Carry a hygrometer, plastic bag without holes and something like a dampit and it will be fine.

Kees,

My hunch is that it would be less likely to crack than a neglected or poorly cured piece. However, I believe it would still be more likely to crack than a well cured piece without additions. After doing so many repairs on cracks at the utaguchi and nakasuke, as well as ji related repairs over the years, I can't imagine all that damage was caused solely by neglect or poor curing.

I don't mean to demonize additions. They have their functions. To be clear, many flutes with additions don't crack at all. It's just that adding will increase the odds of future problems somewhat. Understandably, players will perceive this risk differently. For some it's a non issue. I'm more of a keep it simple guy, so if I don't have to add or am not asked to, I usually don't.

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#16 2009-11-06 11:19:09

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

fouw wrote:

(OK let me get serious for once)


What do makers say about these thoughts (of mine):

I believe if a shahuhachi, jiari, jinuri or jinashi, two parts or one, is made by a really skilled craftsman using very well cured & aged bamboo and owned and played by a person who knows how to take care of it, it never needs to crack. Unless it is played in Death Valley, lost in the Gobi Desert or otherwise subjected to extremes.
Carry a hygrometer, plastic bag without holes and something like a dampit and it will be fine.

Ralph Samuelson has a very particular way of storing his flutes: He uses those large dry cleaning plastic bags. He rolls the bag and places a small piece of damp tissue in midway before rolling up completely. Then, the flute is stored in a cloth flute bag. He says he has never had a flute crack on him on all his years.

I pretty much agree with Ken and Brian, The less done to a piece of bamboo, the less can go wrong. But the modern shakuhachi is what it is because musicians today have needs that players of the past didn't require. And makers who are up to the challenge will try to meet their needs.  The start of Jiari shakuhachi making is not that old when compared to, say, the violin. Maybe in another 200 years...

Instrument repair is a big industry world wide. Some of the best repair people are in New York City because of all the musicians here. There are shops dedicated only to fine instrument repair - violins, woodwinds, band instruments etc.. Instruments can break down regardless of how well it was made. Lot's depend upon how it was cared for.  Sometimes age alone is a factor.

My neighbor across the hall (I won't say what apartment number) has two Stradivarius violins. As far as I know, he does not store them in plastic wink It's a pleasure to hear him play...everyday.


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#17 2009-11-06 16:15:25

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

First of all, seagulls are nothing but rats with wings, but all God's creature and so on, I guess.

I think that is a fantastic idea.  I have a really great flute with an inlay very similar to the one on the right in Perry's PIC.  A tiny corner of bamboo came off when then cleaning rag was pulled through.  I am usually very careful about it, leading it into the bore only from the back side of the flute, but I guess I was clumsy at least once.  Now there is a little silver tag hanging around.  A set up like this would seem to have prevented this for me.  Mine still plays well, though.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#18 2009-11-06 16:19:17

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Every flute will crack.  It may not happen while you're alive, but it will happen.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#19 2009-11-06 16:21:42

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

Nice, Michal! Let's say we call this the "Albatross!"

I'd go for "dovetail."  The mourning doves around here hoot around in what sounds much like chi meri, and hey, we all love tail.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#20 2009-11-06 16:32:13

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

"And he stoppeth one in three."

I'll shut up now.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#21 2009-11-06 17:50:19

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

fouw wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

bamboo has a mind of its own and usually rebels against invasive things such as utachuchi inlays, ji in the bore and nakasuke

Another great idea for preventing cracks is Ken's MU shakuhachi, a Taimu without holes.
Apart from the invasive additions mentioned by Tairaku, many cracks start at finger holes, especially 4 & 5.
Better off without them.

Yeah good point. But holes are subtractions from the bamboo and the other things I mentioned are additions. Whoa!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#22 2009-11-06 19:15:14

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

This isn't algebra.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#23 2009-11-06 19:54:23

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

fouw wrote:

Yeah good point. But holes are subtractions from the bamboo and the other things I mentioned are additions. Whoa!

You got me there!
I owe you a drink!

cheers,
K

If we get together we will probably have many drinks. But Kiku will probably drink both of us under the table.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#24 2009-11-06 20:52:32

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

lowonthetotem wrote:

This isn't algebra.

Nope. It's calculus...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#25 2009-11-11 16:20:54

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Functional utaguchi design?

From the urushi thread:

Tairaku wrote:

I am on the phone with Herr Meister Singer and he says he agrees that flutes without utaguchi inlays or joints are more stable but said he's not sure about ji being more or less stable.

Back to utaguchi inlay (and I've been away from this long thread for a little while so excuse me if I cover ground already covered): See if Herr Meister Singer agrees with my current flute teacher that a good inlay creates a more refined sound and harder "edge" to the Ro which demands a more precise embrochure?

In essence, the inlay-less utaguchi may be structurally more stable, but it is usually thicker, more blunt and creates a less focused tone than a good utaguchi inlay. One of my teacher's observations about The Yuu is that the blowing edge is slightly thicker and it hobbles the opportunity to explore a more precise embrochure with more tonal variance.

My favorites so far: Ken's all around inlay, Perry's Sogawa inlay and Meian inlay. Less flashy, less complicated than the modern Kinko and Tozan inlay.

Last edited by Chris Moran (2009-11-11 16:22:43)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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