Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

edosan wrote:

With shakuhachi, or any wind instrument, it's the vibrating column of air that gives voice to the sound. There may be some vibration in the
material the instrument is made of, but compared to what's going on with the column of air, it's a miniscule contribution to the sound.

I'll see you that statement and raise you this one:

If the material of your favorite wind instrument is actually vibrating, the energy came from the vibrating column of air. The contribution to the sound of the instrument is negative--any vibration of the pipe means less sound energy.

rpowers wrote:

If the material of your favorite wind instrument is actually vibrating, the energy came from the vibrating column of air. The contribution to the sound of the instrument is negative--any vibration of the pipe means less sound energy.

Then why is "chikuin" one of the most appealing factors one looks for in a shakuhachi?

Tairaku, what is "chikuin"?

Sorry, John Singer, the facts are incontrovertible.

The only way that the wall vibrations could conceivably influence the sound of the shakuhachi (or any woodwind), would be for the walls to enter what is called "breathing mode", in which the bore would "pulse" with cross-sectional expansion in time with the vibrating air column. This can only happen if one of the wall resonances can be excited by the frequency of the sounding fundamental or one of its partials, and that coupling sustained. The resonant frequencies of a thick bamboo tube of reasonably round cross-section lie far above any possible playing frequency or any of its strong partials. The walls simply cannot affect the sound.

There was a recent study a team of French researchers decided to find out what would happen if they could get a flute tube to enter breathing mode. They made the tube progressively thinner, until they reached a thickness of 15 microns, which is less than half that of the thinnest commercial available flute, and still the tube would not breathe. They had to make the tube significantly elliptical before they could get it to enter breathing mode, and even when they did, there was no measurable difference in the radiated sound.

And yes, the makers I know are looking for two qualities in their bamboo: resistance to cracking and cosmetic appearance.

Of course your answer about guitars is disingenuous, because it is quite clear that it is the vibrating body of a guitar which produces the sound when excited by the strings. In the shakuhachi, it is the vibrating air column excited by the air jet from the lips. The walls of the flute serve only to define the air column.

I guess that anyone willing to put the same amount of work into a plastic blank as a fine culm could get the same result. These days, many professional clarinetists prefer the Buffet "Greenline" composite (read: plastic) clarinet to its grenadilla counterpart. The sound is identical, they say, and no fear of cracking. In the flute world, the Guo Grenaditte composite flute is getting rave reviews. Great sound, lower cost because the body can be mass produced, low weight and no fear of dents or cracks. The shakuhachi world, mired as it is in iemoto-type tradition, simply hasn't entered the modern age...

Toby

It's so good to feel the bamboo (or the material whatever it is, but the 'boo is special) resonating in your body, starting on the finger and going up your arms!

If we can't hear this, but can feel, it's alright. There is a lot of other nice sounds goind right to the ear and reflecting all over the body. But it's good to "hear" from the finger tips, ehhehehe.


Of course search for a bambu that can vibrate a lot is a good effort that worth all it!!! There is good resonating bamboo and good "almost dead vibes" bamboo, and mostly because of fisics both can sound good because of specifications of the bore, but one will be a magic universe vibrating in your hands eand trhough the mouthpiece and flute holes... other, just trhough holes... or maybe grey, a bit of both (always)...

Last edited by Musgo da Pedra (2009-12-17 07:39:50)

rpowers wrote:

edosan wrote:

With shakuhachi, or any wind instrument, it's the vibrating column of air that gives voice to the sound. There may be some vibration in the
material the instrument is made of, but compared to what's going on with the column of air, it's a miniscule contribution to the sound.

I'll see you that statement and raise you this one:

If the material of your favorite wind instrument is actually vibrating, the energy came from the vibrating column of air. The contribution to the sound of the instrument is negative--any vibration of the pipe means less sound energy.

So, what's your point? It's the NET sound energy you're hearing, and the great majority of that is coming from the vibrating column of air, not from the small vibration more or less induced in the material, which is inconsequential, whether it adds to or subtracts from the overall sound produced.

i been in both sides of that. I do headjont testing a flute company & I get to try & play with lots of different materials & designs. Everything matters!

"Of course your answer about guitars is disingenuous, because it is quite clear that it is the vibrating body of a guitar which produces the sound when excited by the strings. In the shakuhachi, it is the vibrating air column excited by the air jet from the lips. The walls of the flute serve only to define the air column."

Toby, I said electric guitars. And no, it is not clear.

Believe it or not, some of the same arguments that apply to shakuhachi apply to electric guitars by builders as well as pro players. Since the electronics and pickups of an electric guitar sense the vibrations of strings, in theory it doesn’t make any difference what kind of electric guitar body material is used.

Sound familiar?

In practice though, there is a huge difference in electric guitar tone coming out of a neutral amplifier depending on materials used in the making of the instrument - even though it shouldn’t make any difference.

Last edited by Taldaran (2009-12-17 12:31:42)

Taldaran wrote:

Sound familiar?

Actually, it doesn't: regardless of how the sound is picked up on a guitar, it is still generated in an entirely different manner than that in a wind instument. That's what Toby is getting at.

edosan wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

Were they actually double-blind? That would mean the even the player didn't know what material. .

That is an excellent point, nor do I know how that could ever be done with musical instruments (drugs, yes). Must be a small mis-clarification on
Toby's part. Still, it wouldn't have to be double-blind to show the resultant effect; only the listeners would have to be in the dark

Those experiments were done a long time ago as far as I know, I remember hearing about similar experiments in the late '70's. You could do a double blind these days if you use this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dLBtpKn … re=related I'm pretty sure he won't play any differently on a different flute as long as it's the same dimensions.

Even then, if you did come to a definitive conclusion that the material doesn't change the sound, it doesn't rule out that one material might feel better to play than another. For example, maybe those instruments with lots of chikuin don't sound any better, but you can feel a difference.

Taldaran wrote:

Hell you can feel the soundwaves striking your fingertips especially on flutes with bigger holes.

Exactly. At the holes, your fingers are in contact with . . . the vibrating air column, of course.

radi0gnome wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Taldaran wrote:

Tairaku, what is "chikuin"?

From John Singer:

"Another very important invisible quality examined when judging shakuhachi is called "chikuin" -- the way the instrument vibrates when you play. You should be able to feel the bamboo vibrating in your mouth, down to your fingertips, past your wrists and arms, and into your whole body. Some shakuhachi have more chikuin than others and it is understood that the quality of the bamboo used plus the amount and type of material making up the instrument's bore make this difference. In earlier times, bamboo quality was determined differently. For example, many of the older makers have told me that the bamboo from the mountains around Kyoto was the best, and there were several grades of this bamboo. Simply put, bamboo quality and the materials used inside the bore affect the flute's tone color."

But if your fingers and parts of your body touching the instrument are vibrating it means that the instrument is transmitting the vibrations from the column of air instead of absorbing them. When acousticians start arguing about material aren't they talking about materials of similar hardness? Of course a harder material will sound different than a softer one... I think... throw in the fact that with jiari the inner part of the flute is always going to be about the same hardness, maybe the bamboo matters less with them, but then the bamboo could still absorb the transmission of vibrations to your body if it's soft.

BTW, my personal opinion of this material/sound quality argument is that since it seems most ultra high-level musicians say material makes a difference, they're probably right.

What is really important to get is that any common wall material is so much more rigid than the air it contains, there is little difference in how they vibrate based on the relatively small variations in air pressure that are exerted on the walls. I agree that the feel of good bamboo is exquisite, but it makes no difference to the air column and how the wave behaves inside the bore.

It is also important to understand that there are two different kinds of vibrations of the bore. If you tap the flute, you will feel vibrations in the body that are quite distinct. But these are distortional vibrations, in which the tube has pressure applied at one point which makes the tube elliptical. The vibrations of the air column are cross-sectional, in which the air pressure pushes equally against the inside of the tube in all directions.

In playing, the only way the tube can vibrate is by expanding, like a balloon being blown up. Think about that a minute. Can you blow up a shakuhachi like a balloon? If you seal it up and blow as hard as you can, just how much do you think it is going to expand? Do you think that you can blow up a piece of "soft" bamboo more than a piece of "hard" bamboo? Because that is what we are really talking about--how much can you expand the bore with the pressure of the standing wave. For hard or soft bamboo, or metal or plastic, the answer is: not enough to matter in any conceivable way.

As far as feeling the bamboo vibrating. I think you will find that you mostly feel the vibrations in your fingertips as they cover the holes, and not on the body of the flute itself. Try this: have someone else play a flute while you grab the body between your fingers. How much do you feel the vibrations now?

You may feel something, but it is well to remember what I posted before: Researchers found that a metal tube of shakuhachi diameter only 15 microns thick did not vibrate enough to affect the sound in any way, even when it was deliberately made elliptical so that it would vibrate much more than if it were cylindrical.

As Coltman says, even ultra-high level musicians cannot tell what is causing the difference that they well might feel. Until you isolate and control all factors other than that you are testing for (in this case wall material), there is no way of knowing what is causing that difference. In the Coltman experiment, ultra-high level flutists were sure that they could tell the difference between flutes in different materials, and were then baffled to find out that they could no longer tell them apart in the dark. In a test of trombone bells, Smith showed that ten top professional trombonists could not tell the difference between different trombone bells in the dark, even though the frequency response of the bells as measured at the position of the player's ear varied by up to 2 dB, a difference that was not only clearly measurable, but should have been perceptible.

For those of you still clinging to the idea of the veracity of your perceptions, I invite you to explore this web page:

http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2009-12-18 09:12:12)