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Tube of delight!

#26 2010-09-26 23:58:45

Josh
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From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Thanks for that Tairaku, can't let things get too static. You're right, not even many (any?) great players have actually had a huge audience. I guess I was getting at the fact that maybe if he focused more attention on technique there would be more potential for him to grow. But it's all a process. I listened to it again and wasn't as put off by it this time around, although I really don't like the throat vocalizing.

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#27 2010-09-29 21:12:31

geni
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From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

free improv is tough. He is doing his thing , will time will get better.

Also, i want to point out that- the more chops you have, the better you control the instrument & also knowing the tradition of the music (Free Jazz) , the better and more convincing he will sound.
(what i mean by knowing, is to really do the homework , learn solos by ear , play along with them , lots of work ;-)


G

Last edited by geni (2010-09-29 21:46:05)

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#28 2010-09-29 21:18:46

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

I don't think Sabu considers himself jazz. He calls himself something like stone age noise improv. Those words give you a lot of latitude.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#29 2010-09-29 21:43:30

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Frankly, I think he's just farting around.

But what do I know...?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#30 2010-09-30 04:58:28

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

geni wrote:

Also, i want to point out that- the more chops you have, the better you control the instrument & also knowing the tradition of the music (Free Jazz) , the better and more convincing he will sound.
(what i mean by knowing, is to really do the homework , learn solos by ear , play along with them , lots of work ;-)

Yes!

And I'm going to take your statement about 'knowing the tradition of the music (Free Jazz)' literally— Good place to start http://www.ornettecoleman.com/.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#31 2010-09-30 07:50:02

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

geni wrote:

Also, i want to point out that- the more chops you have, the better you control the instrument & also knowing the tradition of the music (Free Jazz) , the better and more convincing he will sound.
(what i mean by knowing, is to really do the homework , learn solos by ear , play along with them , lots of work ;-)

Yes!

And I'm going to take your statement about 'knowing the tradition of the music (Free Jazz)' literally— Good place to start http://www.ornettecoleman.com/.

No need, just go to youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mto9EaN2pbM

I see a lot of similarity to Sabu Orimo's stuff in there... or vice-versa, because those Chicago guys were first.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#32 2010-09-30 10:19:47

indigo
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From: Brooklyn, New York
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 52

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

http://innerside-records.com/label/inde … mitstart=2
Here is a link to Sabu Orimo's record label and a recording of a large flute with harmonica.
Sounds good to me.  These days I'm back again in the purgatory of koto music, a seemingly different universe from Orimo's but perhaps not.  Coordination and speed take much time but then so does the exploration of intention.  Thanks for introducing this player to the forum.

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#33 2010-09-30 12:31:07

ABRAXAS
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Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

I like the term "non-idiomatic improvisation".

I don't think Derek Bailey coined the term but his book on improvisation is where I first heard it. These days I'm partial to improvisation that shows no sign of jazz structures - up to a point even most of the more outside jazz players still retain identifiable "jazz" elements, usually in rhythm but not always. I can only think of a few who have broken away, such as Anthony Braxton's later, more recent stuff (as opposed to most of his earlier stuff), maybe Sonny Sharrock and a few others. It was interesting to see a recent interview with Braxton on youtube, where the young interviewer kept trying to paint him back into the corner of his "angry African" phase - Braxton made himself perfectly clear that he was no longer beholden to that, or even to "jazz", I think he actually even used the term "Post African" - that Stockhausen coined (and got flack for) - to describe where he was trying to go.

Every time myself or someone else posts Sabu material here it turns into a broader discussion about "tradition" vs. whatever, whether what he's doing is legitimate or not, in a traditional or experimental context, or what is. So that in itself is worth something.

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2010-09-30 12:32:19)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#34 2010-09-30 14:11:07

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

radi0gnome wrote:

No need, just go to youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mto9EaN2pbM

I see a lot of similarity to Sabu Orimo's stuff in there... or vice-versa, because those Chicago guys were first.

Well, I think the African Pygmies who these guys got a lot of their inspiration from and Raashan Roland Kirk would have been fine examples too. But I'm not talking about AEC's ability to pull off a deep African drag performance. Their music is another thing altogether, and deep into real tradition. These aren't a bunch of mooks who just decided to go to the local ethnic music store and pick up some goat rattles or the pawn shop for broken saxophones to make "Free Jazz" performance art. These guys are trained musicians, based in a variety of related Jazz traditions making music and drawing from years of musical training.

I could be totally wrong about Sabu Orimo. Maybe he's the real deal who's learned his art and paid his dudes. Or maybe he's just another guy who imagines himself to be a Free Music performance artist in bad drag.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#35 2010-09-30 16:32:08

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

No need, just go to youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mto9EaN2pbM

I see a lot of similarity to Sabu Orimo's stuff in there... or vice-versa, because those Chicago guys were first.

Well, I think the African Pygmies who these guys got a lot of their inspiration from and Raashan Roland Kirk would have been fine examples too. But I'm not talking about AEC's ability to pull off a deep African drag performance. Their music is another thing altogether, and deep into real tradition. These aren't a bunch of mooks who just decided to go to the local ethnic music store and pick up some goat rattles or the pawn shop for broken saxophones to make "Free Jazz" performance art. These guys are trained musicians, based in a variety of related Jazz traditions making music and drawing from years of musical training.

Very good point, maybe that is why Sabu Orimo is avoiding having his music being labeled as "jazz". There does seem to be a law in the avant-garde world that to have any credibility an artist has to have proved that he can handle the standard repertoire. The standard repertoire for classical flute being Bach, Mozart, Chaminade, Poulenc, Hindemith, and such, and every flute player trying to emulate Robert Dick knows they have to learn that too to be taken seriously. Free jazz players seem to have to be able to rule at the more mundane jazz styles before being given attention. 

Moran from Planet X wrote:

I could be totally wrong about Sabu Orimo. Maybe he's the real deal who's learned his art and paid his dudes. Or maybe he's just another guy who imagines himself to be a Free Music performance artist in bad drag.

His lack of advanced technique may only be apparent to more sophisticated audience members and may alter the perceptions of advanced shakuhachi players. He does seem to be doing something right, like I said, I found the first part of that youtube of him (and the singer) to be something I wanted to listen too. Does a good performance or good music necessarily mean that the performer is technically awesome? It's obviously not true for popular music, why does it have to be true for less popular music?


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#36 2010-09-30 18:24:36

Moran from Planet X
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Registered: 2005-10-11
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

radi0gnome wrote:

... There does seem to be a law in the avant-garde world that to have any credibility an artist has to have proved that he can handle the standard repertoire. The standard repertoire for classical flute being Bach, Mozart, Chaminade, Poulenc, Hindemith, and such, and every flute player trying to emulate Robert Dick knows they have to learn that too to be taken seriously. Free jazz players seem to have to be able to rule at the more mundane jazz styles before being given attention.

I don't know about _ruling_ at the more "mundane" levels. Whether were speaking about Jazz, Classical or Japanese (etc) music, having good fundamental knowledge of your instrument and the tradition from which your music emulates is a fine starting place. "Ruling" or being virtuosic is not relevant. It'd be an advantage in terms of critical performance value but a non-virtuoso has as much musical authority to play and perform as anyone else.

Much of my favorite music is not (virtuosic) show-biz grade. Aspiring to be your best is one thing. Thinking that you _have_ to be the best is unrealistic and self-defeating.

radi0gnome wrote:

Does a good performance or good music necessarily mean that the performer is technically awesome? It's obviously not true for popular music, why does it have to be true for less popular music?

Technically awesome no. I appreciate technical wizardry as much as the next schnook, but it doesn't necessarily authenticate a musical performance. Does the musician understand his instrument? Does the musician have some basic grounding in their idiom? Does the musician have respect for the music he or she plays?

Same thing for visual art, writing, the whole can of tomatoes.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#37 2010-09-30 19:51:49

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

He's probably closer to being a "punk" shakuhachi player than a trained one. He obviously is aware of the tradition, having studied with Okuda, and has rejected it in favor of exploring the flute on his own terms. If he couldn't even handle studying with Okuda then he's probably not ready for the tradition.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#38 2010-09-30 19:56:07

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

And I'm going to take your statement about 'knowing the tradition of the music (Free Jazz)' literally— Good place to start http://www.ornettecoleman.com/.

Yes I can assure you Ornette is a good place to be.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/ornette-2.jpg


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#39 2010-09-30 20:14:45

ABRAXAS
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Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

I like the poster of General Nguyen Ngoc Loan executing the Viet Cong prisoner in the background!


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#40 2010-09-30 20:20:05

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3207
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

ABRAXAS wrote:

I like the poster of General Nguyen Ngoc Loan executing the Viet Cong prisoner in the background!

I wondered why he would want something like that in his music room.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#41 2010-09-30 21:31:05

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

He's probably closer to being a "punk" shakuhachi player than a trained one.

Really, you'd class him as punk? Punk musicians I've been exposed to (The Ramones, The Clash, Crime, Sex Pistols, The Minutemen, etc) seem to know their instruments and have some clear rooting in rock and blues — however spare their playing or pared down/amped up their expression.

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

He obviously is aware of the tradition, having studied with Okuda, and has rejected it in favor of exploring the flute on his own terms. If he couldn't even handle studying with Okuda then he's probably not ready for the tradition.

You're very generous. How long did he study with Okuda? A few months? Christ, at Okuda's pace I wonder if he even finished learning the first line of the first piece (only kidding, you Okuda-ites)!

It's all good and fine to "explore" on your own, but that doesn't automatically elevate you to the status of an artist. Kids explore themselves all the time, should we consider them anatomists? Should I consider myself an electrical engineer because I can solder a wire to a circuit board?

As I said, you are very generous.

Last edited by Moran from Planet X (2010-10-01 00:39:00)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#42 2010-09-30 21:48:21

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Posts: 1030
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

It's all good and fine to "explore" on your own, but that doesn't automatically elevate you to the status of an artist. Kids explore themselves all the time, should we consider them anatomists? Should I consider myself an electrical engineer because I can solder a wire to a circuit board?

As I said, you are very generous.

But Sabu Orimo is an artist. When I look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art I see that "Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging symbolic elements in a way that influences and affects the senses, emotions, and/or intellect." I believe that Sabu Orimo succeeded in doing that well. In my opinion it's a results oriented kind of thing, it's not as if he solely labeled himself as an artist, there are people listening and seeing it as art, and he has made waves in the artistic community.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#43 2010-09-30 22:58:30

madoherty
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Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 362

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Take it from a librarian, man, don't rely on Wikipedia for your facts/knowledge.  Just saying... anyone can put anything up on those pages - doesn't have to be factual, or correct... now back to your regularly...

Aesthetically speaking, in a post-modern art world, everyone is an artist... in a non-traditional way... AND there is not a difference between exploring and musicking, necessarily.  It all depends on how you cut the mustard. Art is non-art and non-art is art.

A friend of mine gave me one of his CDs about 2 years ago - I am not certain I made it through the first half of it- and I never have gone back to it. 

But, I am a traditionalist, in a non-traditional way... which happens to be pretty traditional in shakuhachi, so I am traditional!

Last edited by madoherty (2010-10-01 00:17:36)

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#44 2010-09-30 23:49:20

geni
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From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Brian, that picture is priceless!! Any plans to record with the Ornettt!! Do it!!

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#45 2010-10-01 01:09:41

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

radi0gnome wrote:

But Sabu Orimo is an artist. When I look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art I see that "Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging symbolic elements in a way that influences and affects the senses, emotions, and/or intellect." I believe that Sabu Orimo succeeded in doing that well. In my opinion it's a results oriented kind of thing, it's not as if he solely labeled himself as an artist, there are people listening and seeing it as art, and he has made waves in the artistic community.

Holy crappola. If Brian wants to give the guy a nickel, you'll just throw in the whole store, huh?

I once saw a young female gorilla at the L.A. Zoo making repeated parenthetical marks in the mud with a stick ((())). With a stick! I thought to myself, "Self, that gorilla is making art!"

But we seriously digress. The question isn't about "art" it's about what makes an artist and why we should acknowledge them. A lot of people or things can create 'art' according to the simplified stimulus-and-response Wiki definition that you quote.

But — without going to Wiki — what do you think constitutes being an artist?

---------------------------------

(Why would I stick up for Ornette the Noise Man, or Tairaku the Noise Man and not Sabu the Noise Man?)

Last edited by Moran from Planet X (2010-10-01 01:20:58)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#46 2010-10-01 01:45:51

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

what do you think constitutes being an artist?

Having enough people like your stuff so you don't starve to death?

End of History (with profound apologies to Horst).


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#47 2010-10-01 03:16:55

Moran from Planet X
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Posts: 1521
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

edosan wrote:

Moran from Planet X wrote:

what do you think constitutes being an artist?

Having enough people like your stuff so you don't starve to death?

End of History (with profound apologies to Horst).

Okay, well, that ties nicely into the craftsman aspect of being an artist, or non-being of an artist, as the case may be.

We'll give you 3 points for that answer.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#48 2010-10-01 09:15:07

madoherty
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Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 362

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

An artist might be defined by the meaning contained in their work. Aesthetic meaning/truth. This is my answer this morning that could change in a couple of minutes.

http://aesthetics-online.org/

Last edited by madoherty (2010-10-01 09:16:52)

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#49 2010-10-01 09:23:39

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
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Posts: 1030
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Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Moran from Planet X wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

But Sabu Orimo is an artist. When I look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art I see that "Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging symbolic elements in a way that influences and affects the senses, emotions, and/or intellect." I believe that Sabu Orimo succeeded in doing that well. In my opinion it's a results oriented kind of thing, it's not as if he solely labeled himself as an artist, there are people listening and seeing it as art, and he has made waves in the artistic community.

Holy crappola. If Brian wants to give the guy a nickel, you'll just throw in the whole store, huh?

I once saw a young female gorilla at the L.A. Zoo making repeated parenthetical marks in the mud with a stick ((())). With a stick! I thought to myself, "Self, that gorilla is making art!"

If the gorilla was doing so in a way that "influences and affects the senses, emotions, and/or intellect", I'd say it was art. Notice that the definition does not mention anything about intent.

Moran from Planet X wrote:

But we seriously digress. The question isn't about "art" it's about what makes an artist and why we should acknowledge them. A lot of people or things can create 'art' according to the simplified stimulus-and-response Wiki definition that you quote.

Also notice that the Wikipedia definition doesn't give any indication about what makes "good" art. I'd say that the artist needs to be creating at a certain level of "goodness" before being acknowledged.  That could possibly be determined by how much the art "influences and affects the senses, emotions, and/or intellect".   

Moran from Planet X wrote:

But — without going to Wiki — what do you think constitutes being an artist?

The wikipedia definition of art suits me fine, but other than that, I'd say I couldn't define it, but I'd know it when I see (or hear) it. Of course, the artist is the entity creating the art.

Moran from Planet X wrote:

(Why would I stick up for Ornette the Noise Man, or Tairaku the Noise Man and not Sabu the Noise Man?)

Tell me you know the answer and I'll try to guess.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2010-10-01 09:25:52)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#50 2010-10-01 10:08:25

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1040
Website

Re: Sabu Orimo, big wood, Ornette, "What is Art", noisemaking,ad infinitum

Hi all,
Lots of interesting opinions, some I agree with. Some, IMHO, are missing the point about art or being an artist in today's society. Using "good" or "bad" as criteria is an outdated value system for today's art. Dadaism greatly affected how art is made or practiced today. Their anti-beauty aesthetic was quite vulgar to society at the time. However, I saw a Dada exhibit recently at PS.1 Contmeporary Arts Museum here in New York and was reminded that their aesthetic has been for many years co-opted by contemporary designers of CD covers, clothing, furniture, architecture etc... In other words, what was once used as an anti-establishment art statement (reviled in itself), is now a hip selling tool.

It boils down to the artist her/himself. If she believes that what she is doing is art, then it is art regardless of how it will be perceived or whether it sells. One of the most famous artist of our time, Vincent Van Gogh, is just one example. One can look at his paintings and can conclude that his technique is lacking (compared to Augusts Renoir's) or worse, unpracticed.  After his journal Letters to Theo was published, we saw that he was struggling with what he saw in other painters as an idealization or beautification of life. His life was not pretty.

One thing that many practicing commercial artists hope for is that their work generate discussion. Good or bad. It seems that Sabu has accomplished that, at least here on the Forum smile

"Be yourself, others are already taken". - Oscar Wild

Back to work. Have a great day!

Last edited by Yungflutes (2010-10-01 10:48:29)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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