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#26 2011-01-03 18:14:29

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
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Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

radi0gnome wrote:

. Please don't take this as advice, the consensus here on shakuhachiforum seems to be that diaphragm vibrato is not to be messed with. Whether it's good as a learning tool or not is just food for thought, maybe worthy of experimentation.

BTW, I think it's way more difficult to get a good sounding diaphragm vibrato on shakuhachi than on some other flutes and may be the reason it's not typically used with shakuhachi.

Wrong.

We use diaphragm vibrato (for example komibuki on the Nezasaha pieces). We just don't use it instead of or interchangeably with head vibrato.

You'd know that if you took more than one lesson with any given teacher. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#27 2011-01-03 18:44:37

J Ross
Member
From: Vancouver,Washington USA
Registered: 2010-12-18
Posts: 74
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

. Please don't take this as advice, the consensus here on shakuhachiforum seems to be that diaphragm vibrato is not to be messed with. Whether it's good as a learning tool or not is just food for thought, maybe worthy of experimentation.

BTW, I think it's way more difficult to get a good sounding diaphragm vibrato on shakuhachi than on some other flutes and may be the reason it's not typically used with shakuhachi.

Wrong.

We use diaphragm vibrato (for example komibuki on the Nezasaha pieces). We just don't use it instead of or interchangeably with head vibrato.

You'd know that if you took more than one lesson with any given teacher. wink

Which.....I have the privilege of starting Thursday afternoon!!!  Lessons!!!

I can't wait!!!

じぇいむず

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#28 2011-01-03 18:50:55

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

I was directing that comment at radiOgnome not you Jim, he's been around this stuff long enough to............well. Newbie questions are OK!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#29 2011-01-03 19:33:41

J Ross
Member
From: Vancouver,Washington USA
Registered: 2010-12-18
Posts: 74
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Hehe. I'm glad newbie questions are fine as I will have plenty in the coming year. Just received my shakuhachi Yuu in the post for Thursday's lesson.
Not the best flute for some but just fine for me to begin on.Then I can move on to my Perry Yung flutes with confidence.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h93/n7myw/Flutes/Yuu-1.jpg

Last edited by J Ross (2011-01-03 19:34:14)

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#30 2011-01-04 11:49:25

Vermontster
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 5

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Thanks for this thread - been thinking about vibrato on the shaku lately.  I personally have an aversion to diaphragm vibrato - probably a result of my irish traditional music flute pedigree, so was happily avoiding it in my practice even though I suspect that I hear it on some of the recordings that I hear.  I'm more than happy to keep ignoring it - I may not ever get to the point of depth where I'm working on honkyoku pieces where it is appropriate.

Have not taken a lesson yet - maybe someday.

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#31 2011-01-04 13:49:20

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Vermontster wrote:

I personally have an aversion to diaphragm vibrato - probably a result of my irish traditional music flute pedigree, so was happily avoiding it in my practice even though I suspect that I hear it on some of the recordings that I hear.

I know, it sounds like diaphragm vibrato a lot. But I've seen enough videos to see that the same sound is most often head shake vibrato, so I've come to take an "innocent until proven guilty" stance with recordings.   

Vermontster wrote:

I'm more than happy to keep ignoring it - I may not ever get to the point of depth where I'm working on honkyoku pieces where it is appropriate.

I can't say that I'm happy ignoring it, but since I have my hands full just getting notes to sound at will and without breaking it's easy to put on the back-burner, there's a lot of more basic, essential stuff I've still got to work on.   

Vermontster wrote:

Have not taken a lesson yet - maybe someday.

Not even one? You might get hassled by Tairaku some, but one is an awful lot better than none.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#32 2011-01-04 14:03:20

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Vermontster wrote:

Thanks for this thread - been thinking about vibrato on the shaku lately.  I personally have an aversion to diaphragm vibrato - probably a result of my irish traditional music flute pedigree, so was happily avoiding it in my practice even though I suspect that I hear it on some of the recordings that I hear.  I'm more than happy to keep ignoring it - I may not ever get to the point of depth where I'm working on honkyoku pieces where it is appropriate.

Have not taken a lesson yet - maybe someday.

It may already be clear here, but in case it's not: in traditional Japanese shakuhachi music, the diaphragm is NOT used to create vibrato (defined here as a more or less rapid fluctuation in pitch). That's for any traditional Japanese shakuhachi music, not just honkyoku. The diaphragm IS used in certain honkyoku to create a more or less constant pulsating quality to the flow of notes (komi-buki); NOT the same as vibrato.

If you think you're hearing a diaphragmatic vibrato on a shakuhachi recording, either you're not hearing it 'right', or the player doesn't know what they're doing.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#33 2011-01-04 15:54:44

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
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Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Ed, I'm glad you said that. We should understand that the diaphragm used in shakuhachi is actually more "tremolo" than "vibrato". Damn Italian/Japanese/English translations!

The only times I've heard your classic silver flute/clarinet/sax style diaphragm vibrato on shakuhachi was from people who played those instruments before moving to shakuhachi and couldn't lose the habit, and from beginners who decided it sounded cool.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#34 2011-01-05 10:57:40

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Just to complicate things more, the head shaking "vibrato" may not always result in pitch changes, or at least broad pitch changes.  Depending on whether the player is bobbing up and down or shaking from side to side or even making a circular motion.  Up and down seems to change pitch, side to side seems to "pulse" more between focused and airy sounds without changing pitch much, and circular, well it can be pretty complex.  But yes you are right about the Nezasa stuff being more of a pulsing of volume.  I mentioned it because I think it really helps in training the diaphram in general, not just in making a pulse noise.  Alternating between long smooth tones and pulsing ones activates nuerons and muslce fibers in different ways, kind of like alternating between fast and long days when you run or heavy and light weights when you lift.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#35 2011-01-05 13:50:57

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

I know pretty much every one here has seen this, but it's a great example of using a head-shake vibrato to mimic the sound of typical Western vibrato. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRZsmgUQjlA

Actually, I think I can hear the difference between it and diaphragm vibrato if I listen close enough, but I wouldn't trust myself to pass a blind test.

Here's an example of a pretty good player using a diaphragm vibrato. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YqHsdEQ2Qw

By saying he's a pretty good player, I'm not suggesting that it's good, or even OK, to use diaphragm vibrato when playing shakuhachi. It's just that he's getting all the notes nice and solid and with a nice shape and phrasing, that qualifies for at least "pretty good" in my rating system. smile


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#36 2011-01-05 14:12:56

J Ross
Member
From: Vancouver,Washington USA
Registered: 2010-12-18
Posts: 74
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

radi0gnome wrote:

I know pretty much every one here has seen this, but it's a great example of using a head-shake vibrato to mimic the sound of typical Western vibrato. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRZsmgUQjlA

Actually, I think I can hear the difference between it and diaphragm vibrato if I listen close enough, but I wouldn't trust myself to pass a blind test.

Here's an example of a pretty good player using a diaphragm vibrato. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YqHsdEQ2Qw

By saying he's a pretty good player, I'm not suggesting that it's good, or even OK, to use diaphragm vibrato when playing shakuhachi. It's just that he's getting all the notes nice and solid and with a nice shape and phrasing, that qualifies for at least "pretty good" in my rating system. smile

Thanks for the video links.  I'm much more used to playing with the vibrato used in the second clip although after a week of practicing am now able to lose the vibrato completely when playing my shakuhachi. And yes , the music being played certainly dictates acceptable amounts of vibration used. Tremolo ,as defined in my musicology and piano/violin classes was never on set equal footing with vibrato.One vibrates and the other changes pitches according to ornamentation by note change or physical manipulation of keys ,strings or valves. But then one's teachers have differing opinions as to the major differences.

You say tomato,I say toMAto. Lets call the whole thing off :-)

I like the Riley Clip very much. Shame to say I had not viewed it before.

Jim

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#37 2011-01-05 14:41:44

Taldaran
Member
From: Everett, Washington-USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 228

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

I had sustained a neck injury years ago, and sometimes my neck is good so I can really do head shake, other times not.

It's frustrating when I want a good vibrato so from time to time I sneak a bit of diaphragm just for support of what motion I am capable of. I am trying to get a good vibrato as I have seen some clips of master players that hardly move their heads and still get strong vibrato as many of you have seen.


Christopher

“Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe.” Tao Te Ching

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#38 2011-01-05 19:57:37

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Yuri tends to be a matter of taste.  Though it is written into kinko notation with specific intent, other than that it is often added by individuals as an expression of musical aesthetic; some with grace and control and others as something more akin to a nervous habit.  In my branch of the kinko-ryu (Wakanakai) yuri of the type that isn't written into the music is largely suggested by the shishou (master) through his playing.  Students tend to emulate the teacher.  Wakankai's master is something of a fundamentalist and feels that the music should be expressed as it was written wherever possible.  As such, the players of our group follow that style.  I took a different stance early on because I played music outside of the tradition and found that yuri was a necessity to what I wanted to express.  Because I am the first deshi of my group's master, and I have students of my own, who are also Wakanakai members, a certain aspect of the group's playing style is diverging.  I still don't tend to play honkyoku with yuri if it isn't written, but I play sankyoku at my own discretion.  Nothing is written in stone.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#39 2011-01-08 18:56:07

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3203
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

radi0gnome wrote:

I know pretty much every one here has seen this, but it's a great example of using a head-shake vibrato to mimic the sound of typical Western vibrato. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRZsmgUQjlA

Riley gets a nice sound here (and Jeff has a great hairdo) but I don't hear it as imitative of western vibrato.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#40 2011-01-08 20:02:44

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

Tairaku 太楽 wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

I know pretty much every one here has seen this, but it's a great example of using a head-shake vibrato to mimic the sound of typical Western vibrato. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRZsmgUQjlA

Riley gets a nice sound here (and Jeff has a great hairdo) but I don't hear it as imitative of western vibrato.

Actually, not anything like any western vibrato I've ever heard, other than it can be called a 'vibrato'.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#41 2011-01-15 21:04:01

J Ross
Member
From: Vancouver,Washington USA
Registered: 2010-12-18
Posts: 74
Website

Re: Vibrato,Tsukiyuru,Tate Yuri and the beginner.

It has taken some doing but I can now play with very little if no vibrato at all. My teacher has helped a lot in this regard.

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