Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Isn't the pitch related to the temperture of the column of air inside the flute instead of the ambient temperature? In this case, since breath will be very warm, somewhere probably just less than body temperature, the instrument wouldn't be out of tune unless the ambient temperature during the making of the instrument was higher than body temperature. So, if flute makers would avoid making there instruments in rooms higher than 90 degrees fahrenheit, there shouldn't be any problems.

amokrun wrote:

I may have misunderstood you, however, wouldn't warm temperature cause the flute to expand so that basically you'd get a flute that has a larger bore than it normally is when the room gets hot? I understood that this is why playing for a while causes the pitch to change simply because the flute is now warmer and thus expands. Similarly the flute would be smaller when it gets really cold and thus you'd get a different pitch out of it before it warms up. Combine these two things together and you could get a fairly noticeable pitch change.

Did I miss something?

Air is more viscous when it's cold so it plays more flat. I never thought about the dimensional change of the instrument, but I have a feeling the properties of the air swamp out any effects from the change in dimension. The fact that the two different effects don't cancel each other out supports that thought.

radi0gnome wrote:

Air is more viscous when it's cold so it plays more flat. I never thought about the dimensional change of the instrument, but I have a feeling the properties of the air swamp out any effects from the change in dimension. The fact that the two different effects don't cancel each other out supports that thought.

I honestly have no idea how this all works in theory. I've been told that it's a common problem when playing for longer periods of time that the shakuhachi warms up and the pitch changes as result. I always assumed that it's because the instrument starts to expand and thus acts like an instrument with a larger bore. I find that the same thing happens if you bring an instrument from a cold room into warm one and start playing. As the instrument warms up the tone changes slightly. I've had something like this happen when I had my shakuhachi stored in a room that was colder than the room where I was playing. Bringing the instruments to the warmer room and playing them there produced a different sound at first than it did after the flute had warmed up to match the room temperature. Naturally this could be caused by something else as well. Like said, I do my best to not understand shakuhachi too much.

Mujitsu wrote:

In a wind instrument, as the wave travels faster, the frequency will increase making the instrument go sharp.

How much sharper would that be? Say, suppose that I take a flute into a sauna. I guess this is about the hottest place one could actually plan to play in. Since I actually want to play it before it turns into a pile of sticks I'll suppose that we are using a Yuu or similar. Our sauna is pretty warm at 100 degrees celsius. I keep the Yuu there until it has warmed up to match the temperature in the sauna and start blowing. How much sharper sound could I expect? Is it more like slightly sharp D instead of perfect D or closer to D# or even E? I'm just curious about how much of an impact this has on things. Sauna is a rather extreme example but I'm a bit dumb and examples like this help me to visualize things.

ps. I'll promise to test this next summer for real.

Mujitsu wrote:

Well, if I pour very warm water down a 2.6 it changes about 40cents. That's almost between G and G#.  Half-way would be 50cents. So, in a sauna, it's probably sharper than that.

Interesting. I'll have to try that out. Not with a 2.6 bamboo root-end, naturally, and I must say that I nearly cried watching you do that. :-)

Mujitsu wrote:

Looks like you're online now. If you want to go to my cam, I'll be on in 5 minutes to demonstrate the water pouring.

Very nice, thanks. Never knew that such a thing exists.

As far the sauna being dry goes, the sauna we have here in Finland are perhaps somewhat different from what most people are used to. The concept originates from here, as does the word itself. Typically people throw so much water on the hot rocks that it gets very, very moist in there. I suppose that bamboo might like the moisture in the air somewhat but the extreme heat may or may not do something to it. I'm also not sure how it would react to being taken from average temperature and humidity to something that extreme and then quickly back again. Yuu should be fine, naturally, and I figured that it would make for an interesting test as long as some kind of tuner survives the trip.

Kiku Day wrote:

I love this! The way the topics can wander!

Heh. Sorry for derailing the entire thread.

Kiku Day wrote:

Now I HAVE to play in a sauna too! In Denmark, we have sauna at most public swimming pools. I may go there and blow! But there is no better place for a good sauna than Finalnd, and don't forget the beech branches...and then go outside to jump in a lake or make angels in the snow! Or is that just for us tourists from southern Scandinavia, Amokrun?

Nah, all that stuff is quite real. It is more common in some areas than in others and some people care more about the tradition than others do. We also have sauna in most swimming pools although they are usually rather mild. Typically they get warmed just enough to warm people up after swimming in colder water. A small sauna made in the traditional way is a whole different world entirely. They range from barely warm to so hot that you do not want to breathe any more than necessary. If anyone from the forum happens to be visiting Finland at any point, drop me a note if you'd like to get a tour to the sauna culture around here.

Kiku Day wrote:

But I was just so surprised to see how much the pitch had changed when I arrived back in Europe. Perhaps if I do order a flute in the middle of the summer in Japan again, I will tell the maker to consider this!

It is indeed something to keep in mind. I never assumed that where you play would change things that much. Thankfully shakuhachi is a really flexible instrument in how much you can bend the pitch. One silly hobby of mine involves picking an arbitrary pitch and trying to play it on a shakuhachi and optimally doing so without straying at all from it. It's amazing how well it can be done once you stabilize your blowing and breathing enough that the needle in the tuner stops going all over the place.

Hi Kiku
If a maker is accustomed to making shakuhachi for people particular about pitch, they should be taking into account the temperature variations. As far as I understand, A at 442 is the standard here anyway. I have in the past inquired several times about common concert hall temperatures, but have not been able to find out. Since comfortable room temperature could be judged as being around 21~23˚C that might be a good place to start.

If you are worried about having a very different blowing style to the maker, I would suggest that you play a shakuhachi with the maker, and compare the pitch you both make. If the maker is kind enough to work to really what you want, he could take this into account for the making of your specifications.

Best wishes
Justin

Concert pitch...

I have heard from a professional basoon player that the main pitch during a single concert ussualy rises up to A444, since violins intonate easier at higher pitch and therefore the players tend to push the pitch. So, I guess one has to adjust by ear and embrouchure anyway.

Regards,

Marek