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#1 2006-06-05 19:05:28

Toffe
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2006-06-05
Posts: 117

A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

Hello everybody. I'm all new here and all new to making shakuhachi's. I started my first today.
I'm just about to finish the Utaguchi and I need to find the places for the holes.

I have the PDF by Ken LaCosse (awsome!). But I just don't understand how to read the formula for other lengths than 54,5.
Could anyone please explain it?

I've also looked at Nelson Zink's webpage at http://www.navaching.com/shaku/scale.html
I made an excell document generating the hole placement for the minor pentatonc scale, based on his diagram.
But people generally seem to like LaCosse's formula better.

What would it be if you put it in a table formatted the same way as Zink did?

Thank you for all the awsome info on the forums! Looking forward to learn here!
The flute I'm making , by the way,  is 64.9 cm.

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#2 2006-06-05 19:20:29

evan kubota
Member
Registered: 2006-04-10
Posts: 136

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

What I've learned in about a month of making shakuhachi is that there is no exact formula that will work 100% of the time. That's not to say you should just 'eyeball it' without any reference. I generally look at estimates from http://jeremy.org/music/shakutool.cgi (this is pretty good if you get the average bore diameter and wall thickness right). I then compare those with the values from the LaCosse PDF (also good, especially for standard 1.8). Based on some experience and intuition, I decide which one to go closer to. You should drill the holes on the small side and enlarge as necessary to raise the pitch.

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#3 2006-06-05 19:28:45

Toffe
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2006-06-05
Posts: 117

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

Thx alot!

But do you know how to read the DPF (LaCosse) formula? How do I use it on different lengths?

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#4 2006-06-05 20:50:20

evan kubota
Member
Registered: 2006-04-10
Posts: 136

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

Pretty much what it says - for a 64.9 cm flute it would be

hole 1 (measured from bottom end) - (12.1 x 64.9)/(54.5) = 14.41 cm

6.49 cm between each hole

Hole 4 to hole 5 (3.6 x 64.9)/(54.5) = 4.29 cm

Note that the distance between holes, while given as consistent in the formula for other lengths, is usually not constant in my experience; you can see this by observing the placements for the sample 1.8 in the PDF.

1-2: 5.45 cm
2-3: 5.2 cm
3-4: 5.6 cm

I generally scale the distances by a similar ratio. You can find this by dividing the actual numbers given for the 1.8 by the numbers obtained through the formula (5.45 between all four top holes).

5.45/5.45 = 1
5.2/5.45 = .954
5.6/5.45 = 1.027

Multiply the scaling factors (1, .954, 1.027) by the distance obtained through the formula by any length (in your case, 6.49 cm) to obtain 'corrected' values that are probably somewhat closer to actual positions.

You still have to use your own judgment and listen to the flute as it progresses. You could also drill them all equidistant (6.49 cm) and vary the hole size to affect pitch...

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#5 2006-06-05 20:57:02

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

Toffe wrote:

Thx alot!

But do you know how to read the DPF (LaCosse) formula? How do I use it on different lengths?

Based on your flute size (64.9), the new figures could be calculated thusly:

1st Hole: 54.5(ken's example flute)X= 12.1(ken's size factor) x 64.9(your flute)

     Solve the equation for X, and you'll get 14.4 (distance from root end to center of first hole for the 64.9 flute).

Do the math for each factor:

     54.5X = (ken's factor) x 64.9
     
     Solve for X

Bear in mind that this is only a starting point which will be pretty close to Mujitsu's proportionally because your flute is only slightly bigger; as the flutes get longer, the proportional approach starts to break down...

So here's the lot (I think...): 1st: 14.4, 2nd: 6.49, 3rd: 6.19, 4th: 6.67, 5th: 4.28 (center to center).

Capice?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2006-06-06 08:24:17

Toffe
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2006-06-05
Posts: 117

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

Thanks alot guys" I think I got it now.
I'm making an Excell sheet that will have you put in the length and then gives the hole positioning according to LaCosse and also according to Zink. Would there be any interest in such a file?

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#7 2006-06-06 19:11:14

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

My gf made me a great excell sheet, but it's on the computer that just died. I think it had problems when going too long, though.

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#8 2007-08-23 11:52:21

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

Stumbled upon this older thread and thought I'd add a bit.

Tuning strategy is a personal thing. Many things influence the position of the holes; aspect ratio, bottom hole diameter, choke point diameter, hole size, wall thickness, bore irregularity. etc. Therefore, one formula will not be ideal for each flute. As Ed mentions, a formula is only a starting point.

For some, it might be easier to have various formulas for each "style" of shakuhachi. Others might prefer a marked elastic band, then "stretch to fit." I prefer to rely on one formula, then adjust depending on the features of each flute. It depends how you're wired. Whatever works!

Ken

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#9 2007-12-30 18:10:35

and7barton
Member
Registered: 2007-12-30
Posts: 4

Re: A good hole placement fomula... help me please..

I can vouch for the elastic method. I use white woven elastic (knicker elastic !) - Mark out for the shortest shakuhachi...... you can then stretch it to fit any larger size....... all the ratios remain true.

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