Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

#1 2008-01-06 07:22:31

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Notation rant.

Why oh why do shakuhachi notations use such long words for the names of the notes. I've been sitting here and translating stuff from english to finnish since 8am or so. It's now 14:30. I must have written "Ichi San no U no Meri" about thousand times by now. Somewhere along the line I wrote some macros for my editor that let me fill in the most absurd names by using certain letter combinations like ISU for Ichi San no U. You'd think that with there being nearly twice as many kana in japanese than letters in western scripts they could have come up with names for all of the notes. Surely there aren't anywhere near 40-some distinct notes even if you go crazy and assign names for everything up to fourth octave or so.

Now I feel a bit better again. Back to work. Still got a whole bunch of stuff to translate and only about six and half hours to do it today.

Offline

 

#2 2008-01-06 13:06:43

philthefluter
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: 2006-06-02
Posts: 190
Website

Re: Notation rant.

There is a logic to the naming of notes. The numbers (ichi, ni, san, yon, go) refer to which hole is open. The name of the pitch comes after the 'no' and the head position is identified (meri, dai meri or kari). Hope this helps!


"The bamboo and Zen are One!" Kurosawa Kinko
http://www.shakuhachizen.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shakuhachizen

Offline

 

#3 2008-01-06 13:30:58

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Notation rant.

philthefluter wrote:

There is a logic to the naming of notes. The numbers (ichi, ni, san, yon, go) refer to which hole is open. The name of the pitch comes after the 'no' and the head position is identified (meri, dai meri or kari). Hope this helps!

I do know about the numbers and naming in general. What I don't get is, why do we have Ro, Tsu and so forth but then certain notes are given bizarre names based on holes that are needed to play them. Surely there should be enough kana left to give Ichi San no U and San no U both real names. The Hi/Ri issue bothered me originally until I noticed that you can actually have a Ri as a Kan note and it actually makes a difference in some cases. The names for Dai Kan notes are even more strange. San no Ha should, according to my logic, be San Go no Ha. Yon no Ha is even more strange because the fourth hole is actually one of the two holes you do not open to play it. I'm sure there is a logical explanation for Dai Kan notes being the way they are. If I had to guess, I'd say it has something to do with older flutes playing those notes differently which means that the numbering is just wrong now. I'd love to have someone explain the history of those.

Offline

 

#4 2008-01-06 14:34:24

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Notation rant.

The reason for all that is usually to distinguish notes of the same pitch (but often different colors/timbres) but different fingerings.

There are many.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#5 2008-01-06 15:58:43

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Notation rant.

edosan wrote:

The reason for all that is usually to distinguish notes of the same pitch (but often different colors/timbres) but different fingerings.

Even so, doesn't some lineage call Ichi San no U as Ru? Or is that San no U? I think those two convey the same information but the second one somehow makes more sense to me. Using Meri to say "this note, except take it down a bit" makes very much sense. I am a bit curious though as to how the Dai Kan notes got their names. Some of them a logical, others seem a bit strange. I'll have to bug my teacher about that at some point.

Offline

 

#6 2008-01-07 17:50:09

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: Notation rant.

There are a number of reasons for the confusing, inconsistent and illogical notation systems used by shakuhachi players. In my opinion, the main reason was because many people over many generations developed the systems in an ad hoc sort of way, with competing and occasionally conflicting attempts towards standardisation.

Unfortunately, most shakuhachi players outside of Japan first learn one or another variation of the Kinko notation system, arguably the most illogical and confusing of the numerous shakuhachi notation systems. Not so in Japan, where other systems are more common, that of the Tozan lineages in particular.

Kinko notation is used most frequently outside of Japan, with a few exceptions such as in Australia, merely because of historical ‘accident’, not because it is the best system around. On the contrary!

The Chikuho notation system, for example, has one set of kana for the ‘kari’ notes and another set for the ‘meri’ notes. Our Finnish friend’s wish for distinct names for all (or nearly all) of the fingering positions and their ‘meri’ partners was realised early last century, with the development of the Chikuho system.

Chikuho notation, of course, has its own peculiar illogical inconsistencies and ambiguities.

Another reason for the ambiguity occurring in all shakuhachi notation systems is the myriad ways of getting particular pitches on the shakuhachi.

There are an infinite ways, for example, of producing the upper octave ‘g’ (on a 1.8 flute), eg, opening the bottom three holes and meri-ing heaps, opening bottom two holes, shading third, with no meri; opening bottom and third hole only, no meri; opening bottom hole, shading second hole and kari-ing, etc. Plus all the levels of meri in combination with all the degrees of shading of each or all bottom three holes.

One must remember that shakuhachi notation developed and continues to function more as a mnemonic device or memory aid than as a teaching or learning aid.

In other words, the music is supposed to be learned ‘by ear’ first. The notation merely helps the player to remember what she has already learned.

Used in that way, even the inelegant and unwieldy Kinko notation system is not that much of a headache.

Having said this, all shakuhachi notation systems have some advantages over the ubiquitous staff notation system. No one system is better than all the rest.

Finally, nearly everything becomes more cumbersome with translations, especially traditional shakuhachi notation going from Japanese to English to Finnish!

For further reading, you might be interested in the following article, which I wrote ten years ago:

1988 "Fu Ho U vs. Do Re Mi: The Technology of Notation Systems and Implications of Change in the Shakuhachi Tradition of Japan", Asian Music XIX(2):71-81

Offline

 

#7 2008-01-07 18:03:37

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Notation rant.

Thanks Riley,

Isn't it also true that the tower of shakuhachi notation babel is also a result of people coming up with "new" notation in order to consolidate their power within their own ryu in an exclusive fashion? And so that their students only know one kind of notation, therefore will not switch to another ryu during their shakuhachi career? This is a financial incentive for an iemoto to develop unique notation.

Whereas Western notation is inclusive, with every style and every instrument basically using the same notation and symbols. Not to mention the names for certain pitches don't change from instrument to instrument and style to style. Imagine if playing heavy metal, third fret 6th string is called "G" but if playing flamenco it's called "Q". wink

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#8 2008-01-07 19:08:42

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Notation rant.

Riley Lee wrote:

Used in that way, even the inelegant and unwieldy Kinko notation system is not that much of a headache.

I know Web projects like this can get dicey, but is there any hope for the Chikuho interactive to publish (http://www.rileylee.net/chikuho.html)?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

Offline

 

#9 2008-01-07 20:56:35

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Notation rant.

Riley so loves the Chikuho notation that, if asked nicely, he will fly to Claremont at his own expense and teach it to you for only a small fee.

wink

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#10 2008-01-07 23:42:18

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Notation rant.

Riley Lee wrote:

For further reading, you might be interested in the following article, which I wrote ten years ago:

1988 "Fu Ho U vs. Do Re Mi: The Technology of Notation Systems and Implications of Change in the Shakuhachi Tradition of Japan", Asian Music XIX(2):71-81

Time is getting away from you, Sensei.


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

Offline

 

#11 2008-01-08 02:34:37

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: Notation rant.

What? Didn't we just celebrate the New Year, 1998? Shivers, you mean it's already 2008!??!

That faux pas was probably wishful thinking on my part - we certainly could use an extra 10 years to prepare for the World Shakuhachi Festival!

BTW, I was severely called to task once for calling staff notation, 'western notation'. It's as 'eastern' as it is 'western' nowadays. Besides, there are other notation systems which developed in the West besides staff notation, eg; tablature for guitars.

There are not that many shakuhachi notation systems. Most are variants of two main ones, Kinko and Tozan. Learn those two, plus staff notation and you'll be able to decipher just about any score for shakuhachi. You might not be able to play the music, but at least you'll be able to read the notation. Add Chikuho only if you want to be seriously unique, or if the Chikuho repertoire interests you.

The web project remains something for the future. Keep reminding me periodically....

Offline

 

#12 2008-01-08 05:39:37

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Notation rant.

Thank you for the insightful comment.

Riley Lee wrote:

The Chikuho notation system, for example, has one set of kana for the ‘kari’ notes and another set for the ‘meri’ notes. Our Finnish friend’s wish for distinct names for all (or nearly all) of the fingering positions and their ‘meri’ partners was realised early last century, with the development of the Chikuho system.

That sounds logical. Another notation idea I found really nice was the usage of red color to indicate notes in Kan that is apparently used in notation by Nishimura Koku. I suppose that many of the more recent or "non-mainstream" styles of notation have fixed a thing or two along the way.

Riley Lee wrote:

There are an infinite ways, for example, of producing the upper octave ‘g’ (on a 1.8 flute), eg, opening the bottom three holes and meri-ing heaps, opening bottom two holes, shading third, with no meri; opening bottom and third hole only, no meri; opening bottom hole, shading second hole and kari-ing, etc. Plus all the levels of meri in combination with all the degrees of shading of each or all bottom three holes.

It is certainly true that it would be very confusing to try to assign something for every possible way to do things. Then again, some notes appear in music over and over whereas others do not. It would seem logical to assign good names for the notes that are used in the music of that particular school and then have some kind of alternative for less common things. Ichi San no U comes up often enough that it could use an unique name.

Riley Lee wrote:

Used in that way, even the inelegant and unwieldy Kinko notation system is not that much of a headache.

I don't mind the notation much. It's only when I have to write it down in english that it becomes painful. Thinking about it and using it isn't such a problem even if certain things don't make much sense. Since it was the first style of notation I learned (that is, I still can't read staff notation), my brain is pretty much wired to read it by now.

Riley Lee wrote:

For further reading, you might be interested in the following article, which I wrote ten years ago:

1988 "Fu Ho U vs. Do Re Mi: The Technology of Notation Systems and Implications of Change in the Shakuhachi Tradition of Japan", Asian Music XIX(2):71-81

Will do my best to look it up. It is certainly an interesting topic even if it makes little difference as far as using the notation or actually playing goes.

Offline

 

#13 2008-01-08 05:49:06

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Notation rant.

Tairaku wrote:

Whereas Western notation is inclusive, with every style and every instrument basically using the same notation and symbols. Not to mention the names for certain pitches don't change from instrument to instrument and style to style. Imagine if playing heavy metal, third fret 6th string is called "G" but if playing flamenco it's called "Q". wink

Interestingly enough, didn't staff notation originally come as a compromise because there was a ton of ways to do the same thing and it was getting out of hand? The way I understood the story is that they had various different systems and eventually ended up with something that is a mix between those.

Maybe some day we'll see a merger of shakuhachi notations into something that combines the best parts into one single notation system.

Offline

 

#14 2008-01-08 08:33:31

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Notation rant.

amokrun wrote:

Maybe some day we'll see a merger of shakuhachi notations into something that combines the best parts into one single notation system.

I have a set of minyo books that use the Tozan notation for time (the lines down the side) and Kinko notation for the notes.
I sort of like it, since I often have a hard time seeing if there are two or one ticks next to a note or if a mark indicating a
meri is actually a timing tick, etc. [I am a native Kinko "speaker" BTW].


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google