Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

#1 2008-02-13 15:02:31

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

Hi,

I'm planning a short trip to Japan in late May (mostly sight seeing and visiting friends).
Does anyone have any favorite stores to purchase shakuhachi (Kinko) sheet music? I am
aware of Mejiro (great store but not so good for sheet music) in Tokyo and a small music shop
in the Gion in Kyoto (around the corner and down a few blocks from the old Kibuki theater).
I will be in Tokyo, Kyoto, and Osaka mainly. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

Offline

 

#2 2008-02-13 15:26:00

David Sawyer
Jun Shihan
Registered: 2006-01-30
Posts: 7

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

Hi Michael,
If you are looking for Kinko notation other than, say, Chikuyusha sankyoku, the big department stores (hogaku section) often have surprising gems...

In Kyoto, 'Kanazen' has a lot of Chikuyusha scores and some modern.

Cheers,
David

Offline

 

#3 2008-02-13 16:24:30

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

David Sawyer wrote:

In Kyoto, 'Kanazen' has a lot of Chikuyusha scores and some modern.

Ah yes, Kanazen is the name of the place that I was referring to in the Gion (the name had
escaped me).

I hadn't thought of checking department stores. Thanks for that tip.


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

Offline

 

#4 2008-02-13 21:19:17

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

Hi,
  Yeah, Kanazen is good in Kyoto. In Osaka, the Hanshin department store in Umeda (I think the hogaku section is on the 7th or 8th floor) has a pretty good selection of Kinko sankyoku and shinkyoku (Miyata Kohachiro, Edo Shingo...)

Offline

 

#5 2008-02-14 10:35:03

mrosenlof
Member
From: Louisville Colorado USA
Registered: 2006-03-01
Posts: 82

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

There's a hogaku department at the store?  Wow.  What does that department look like?

I went to Chikuyusha directly in Tokyo and they were very nice, but there is not a retail store front or anything like that.  It would be best to call or write ahead for an appointment.  Contact info is on their web site.

The Mejiro shop had a lot of sheet music when I was there last June.  And a _lot_ of people on a mid-day saturday.  Also nice people.


Mike Rosenlof

Offline

 

#6 2008-02-14 11:35:40

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

mrosenlof wrote:

I went to Chikuyusha directly in Tokyo and they were very nice, but there is not a retail store front or anything like that.  It would be best to call or write ahead for an appointment.  Contact info is on their web site.

The Mejiro shop had a lot of sheet music when I was there last June.  And a _lot_ of people on a mid-day saturday.  Also nice people.

I'm not fluent in Japanese (I can get by in train stations and eating establishments, etc.), How was communication
at Chikuyusha? Would I need to have a japanese speaker with me?

When I've been to Mejiro (agreed, very nice people indeed), they have had books but not the Chikuyusha or Kinkosha
sheets. I've noticed that they are now advertising the Kinkosha publication of "Haru no Umi" and a hand-full of the
Chikuyusha scores as well (I think I have most of the ones they offer however). Anyway, I was just looking for some
alternative places to shop (particularly in Osaka if possible, since I think I may have some free time there - my
wife and I will be traveling with two friends of ours thus my shakuhachi delving will be a bit limited this time).

I've begun practicing with a Koto player whose group plays a selected subset of pieces (many of which are
Michio Miyagi compositions but not all). I have some of these but I'd like to collect a few more (most seem
to be things that were published by Kinkosha).


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

Offline

 

#7 2008-02-14 11:49:37

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 132
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

Michael,
   Being fluent in Japanese isn't absolutely necessary at Chikuyusha.  Ohkawara-san, the gentleman who runs the office, has enough English to get through most transactions. Besides the 150+ Chikuyusha scores they also have lots of the "White Books" from Notomi Judo's Kinko notation. If you have any time at all it's worth a visit. You should definitely call ahead, though. Here's a look at part of their "notation warehouse":  http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6056141
   Have a great time in Japan!

Elliot

Offline

 

#8 2008-02-14 19:20:52

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

mrosenlof,
The Hanshin Hyakkaten (dept. store) is right acros the street from the big JR Osaka station. You can go into the 2nd floor from the walkway over the street that connects JR, Hankyu, and Hanshin. I checked and it's in the corner of the 7th floor. If you need help you can just ask someone for "Wagakki?" (Japanese instruments)和楽器。
I've bought a lot of Kinko notation from them before, it's kind of hard to find places when Tozan dominates the scene here in Kansai, well everywhere I guess, but for shinkyoku especially it is more of a logical system.

At a different department store's wagakki section that didn't carry any kinko I even had a woman who worked there tell me I should switch and play Tozan ryu because that's what everyone around plays! That pissed me off and out of spite I told her that when I want to play boring imitation western music I'd switch. Bad Gaijin, I know. And I really have no problem with Tozan players, she just pushed my buttons.

Offline

 

#9 2008-05-23 09:31:12

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

I'n not quite sure what your getting at here Genki Desu. Your putting me in a not so Genki mood... Was I being disgraceful? I think not.   Disrespectful is what the woman in the department store was. Disrespectful to me and to all of the other shakuhachi schools out there that are not part of the Tozan monopoly. Sorry to burst your happy bubble, but that's what it is. As I said before, I do have plenty of Tozan ryu friends and do appreciate Tozan music, but that doesn't mean I need to be told by a stranger that for the good of society I should change schools.

"I don't think that such behaviour will do anything to improve the perception by Japanese of non-Japanese shakuhachi players."
First of all, who cares. Let your sound speak for you. And second of all, why do you think Japanese people have such a bad perception of foreign players? From my experience I haven't really met that many people who hold this perception.  There's plenty of bad Japanese players too you know.
I just related a personal story to the group. If I hurt your feelings there Genki Desu, why don't you just ask the administrators to remove the post. As for me, I feel no disgrace. As I said before, I was being a Bad Gaijin, but hey, we can't all be Genki all of the time. Please excuse my humanness

Offline

 

#10 2008-05-23 18:53:32

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

Alright kids. Enough.

Josh has every right to express his opinion about Tozan Ryu. Although I don't agree with him about Tozan, I think the music is good and valid. Anybody can take down their own posts. Only administrators and moderators can take down other people's posts.

The lady at the music store made a silly comment about switching to Tozan, but it's interesting from a sociological perspective. It shows how strong the ryu ha system is in Japan.

Maybe Josh shouldn't have responded thus but that's his thang.

If you read Genki's post it's not stated that Japanese have a negative impression of foreign players. Maybe it's implied, but he just says "will not improve".

It's OK to have reasonable discussions about the music of one ryu versus another but we should try to be polite about it. My personal opinion is that NONE of the shakuhachi music we play is "authentic" if by authentic we mean "unchanged since origin".

Kurahashi Sensei said that scholars did computer analysis of the honkyoku and it showed that the idea that "Kyorei" "Koku" and "Mukaiji" were the three original pieces was put to the test. "Kyorei" was the only one that showed an old origin. The other two were modern.

So maybe everybody should just play "Kyorei" to keep ourselves authentic? But THEN, which one? There are at least three versions featuring various permutations of kan and otsu register. Which is the "real" one?

Maybe Tozan is Westernized, but it doesn't try to hide that fact.

Prem recently made an interesting post about Myoan being Westernized, and that's particularly incisive because most people consider that to be most "authentic". However it looks like a lot of that music was composed in an attempt to revive the Fuke sect after a period of dormancy following Meiji reconstruction. I'd be interested in hearing more about that.

Kinko Ryu is the oldest unbroken line. We know who wrote their pieces, Kinko Kurasawa, so we can date precisely those songs. However even those have changed during the course of time, which can be verified by playing flutes made by Kinko Kurasawa, which can't produce some of the techniques used by modern players.

I've heard from some "Dokyoku" players that the way they play is a reversion to the ancient techniques that were almost lost. On the other hand I read an interview with Yokoyama Sensei who said he cleaned up those pieces for the concert stage, which sounds closer to the truth.

So I think on this forum we should show broad tolerance and respect to members of all ryuha and acknowledge that our personal preferences are a matter of taste, not history. Because NONE of this stuff is authentic. If anybody disagrees I'd like to hear about it. Seriously.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#11 2008-05-23 19:57:51

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

Thanks for that informative response to keep us all in line. I could feel Tairaku's Zen stick winding up for the whacking as I was writing the response, but just couldn't help myself. And for the record, as I said in the beginning, it was said out of spite, meaning that I don't really believe that the Tozan ryu is any less authentic than any other organization, but that I knew that saying that would rock her boat as she had done mine. I can read and play Tozan music and I love it. What I said was not meant to be an expression of my opinion about the Tozan Ryu, merely a childish response to aggravate the old woman at that moment, no one on this forum.

We were originally talking about notation and the difficulty of finding it. My point, although apparently not well articulated, was that although their is a large number of foreign Kinko players, Myoan players etc. these groups are the minority within Japan hence it's sometimes difficult to find the notation. At that department store I truly felt like she was looking down on me and treating me and the ryu like a lower class minority, so I bit back. I guess you had to be there. I appologize if anyone missed the sarcasm and was offended.

Last edited by Josh (2008-05-23 20:23:12)

Offline

 

#12 2008-05-23 20:28:38

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

*

(sigh......)



eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#13 2008-05-23 21:43:53

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

OK now we got that cleared up. Everybody kissed and made up. Equilibrium is restored. Thanks to Josh and Genki for their thoughtfulness in putting this behind them. Once again shakuhachi bridges misunderstandings.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#14 2008-05-24 02:20:53

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: sankyoku/shinkyoku sheet music in Japan

Perhaps it's in bad taste to add a comment after it seems the issue has been resolved, but I didn't want it to look like I was taking sides earlier. I think something to consider is the cultural difference between where Josh hails from and the culture within which the woman at Mejiro grew up. I grew up in America and sometimes get frustrated/angry with comments that people here in Taiwan make -- it's the old West meets East (and vice versa). My take is that in Asian culture, it's perfectly acceptable for a complete stranger or simple acquaintance to give you unsolicited advice. As a westerner, I often bump into this issue and have to constantly remind myself that people aren't trying to look down at me by making such comments -- they instead usually come from (shallow/polite) concern.

To give another anecdote, many people here in Taiwan will show a broad smile when embarrassed. The first time I had a guy on a scooter suddenly pull out in front of me without looking and give me a little bump, I almost completely lost control when he smiled smile  I was so angry I couldn't speak. How far I've come...

<apologies to Michael for continuing the derailment of the thread>

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google