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#1 2008-02-23 08:35:14

chuck091956
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From: Arizona, USA
Registered: 2006-07-02
Posts: 32
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Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

I've been working without a teacher for a very long time. I'm sure a teacher would correct me on my pitch. I typically am flat but working to correct this.

I have some CDs that provide instruction and I have both the auto tuner program on my computer and a pitch meter I use when I'm out and about. The auto tuner can be set to 10, 20 or 30 cent and it will indicate when you're within that plus or minus range.

My question is, who many cents would most teachers want a student to be within when playing?


Chuck Peck

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#2 2008-02-23 10:39:46

mrosenlof
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From: Louisville Colorado USA
Registered: 2006-03-01
Posts: 82

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

I should probably let one of the teachers here answer this rather than a 2 year beginner like myself, but...

Most teachers will want you to be dead on.  Especially when you're playing in unison with another person, any pitch deviation between the two of you is very noticable.  The second most noticable thing is deviation in intervals.  This is where it shows the most when your meri notes are too sharp, but if your Tsu to Chi interval is not correct, it shows.  The third most noticable thing is absolute pitch.  Pick up your instrument and play Re.  Fewer people will know if you're right on pitch with that one note, but a few will.

My tuner tells me I'm good when I'm within about five cents for what that's worth.

Depending on your experience level, a teacher will expect more from you, but some will put more emphasis on pitch accuracy earlier than others.

My (silver) flute teacher has perfect pitch which is something of a blessing and a curse -- for both of us!  Actually, it's *really* good for me.  My shakuhachi teacher corrects me on pitch, I don't hear about it as often from him as from the flute teacher.  I have more years of flute.


Mike Rosenlof

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#3 2008-02-23 19:44:32

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

The question is beyond my level of expertise too, but got me to thinking about how counterproductive it was to try practicing vocalizing with a tuning meter. That's because voice contains so many overtones that what might sound in tune to the meter won't sound right to the human ear. For voice it's better to try to match pitches with another instrument like a piano in order to see if you're in tune. I know flute, particularly silver flute, is a lot closer to a sinusoidal wave with very few overtones, but I wonder if there might be something sort similar with shakuhachi. I know I saw a tuning meter on Ebay once that was supposed to be specifically for shakuhachi.

I'm very impressed by how in tune many of the Japanese concert shakuhachi players are on youtube, they seem to know exactly where the note will be without having to slide up or down to reach it at all.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#4 2008-02-23 21:40:55

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

radi0gnome wrote:

I'm very impressed by how in tune many of the Japanese concert shakuhachi players are on youtube, they seem to know exactly where the note will be without having to slide up or down to reach it at all.

I think that concert playing is  the answer to this situation.  The tendency within the Kinko and Tozan schools is to play with koto and shamisen often and most often in concert situations in Japan.  Both of these instruments (especially koto) are typically tuned to tuning devices and not relatively tuned to other instruments.  After many chances at playing ensemble, the shakuhachi player will gravitate toward the pitch of these instruments as a conscious effort.  Within the process of playing ensemble, the koto gives a sympathetic, harmonic relationship to what the shakuhachi is playing and the shamisen usually is more or less in unison with the shakuhachi in traditional, sankyoku.  This gives two very good reference points from which, with repetition, the shakuhachi player can land their own notes consistently and accurately even in solo situations.  Odds are, in their early times, those players did some sliding to get into tune.  This type of repetition gives a muscle memory that is very reliable, and when combined with a discerning ear, makes pitch correction a very quick and small part of playing.
One of the important parts of being expert at anything is in the forgetting of its technicalities; the freeing of the need to have to think about technicalities.  Consistently playing in pitch (barring any physical deficits or challenges) usually means having so much experience playing with other instruments that one is able to forget about the process of pitch adjustment.  Pitch, like finger and head position, facial muscle tension and its relationship to other muscular activities that happen repetitively in playing, simply becomes an unconscious aspect of playing which free the player's body to become an expressive, creative conduit and truly a part of the instrument itself.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#5 2008-02-24 01:34:30

Zakarius
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From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Jeff, your response leads me to believe that achieving perfect pitch will be nothing short of a miracle for me because I have no opportunities to play in concert with koto and shamisen (nor desire to). I'm guessing that many other amateur enthusiasts are in a similar situation. Would you argue that a solo honkyoku player's pitch is less important since they're not collaborating with other musicians, or is this a question of when only the discerned ear can tell an accomplished player from an amateur?

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#6 2008-02-24 02:25:47

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Zakarius wrote:

Jeff, your response leads me to believe that achieving perfect pitch will be nothing short of a miracle for me because I have no opportunities to play in concert with koto and shamisen (nor desire to). I'm guessing that many other amateur enthusiasts are in a similar situation. Would you argue that a solo honkyoku player's pitch is less important since they're not collaborating with other musicians, or is this a question of when only the discerned ear can tell an accomplished player from an amateur?

Zak -- jinashi size queen

In general, meaning not specifically shakuhachi, I've noticed that a lot of non-musicians will like pieces that are played better in tune even if they can't say exactly what they like or dislike about a performance. So I'd say it's not just the well-trained ears that it matters for.

Also, it's kind of nit-picking, but we're not necessarily talking about perfect pitch here on a few levels. First is that we're talking about where the note is on an instrument. Even though there are a lot more variables in finding the right pitch than on a piano, in order to land a D on shakuhachi you don't really need perfect pitch. All you need to know is the fingering, blowing angle, tightness of embouchure, and strength of breath to get the D. Hearing it of course is a plus, but by practicing matching pitches or working with a tuning meter (or as Jeff suggested, playing with other instruments) you should be able to get pretty darn close.

And then there's what the definition of perfect pitch is. Very few people have perfect pitch. Many people have relative pitch. That means that if you walked up to a musician and played a note at random, not a whole lot would be able to tell you what note it is. If they can, not all of them have perfect pitch. The ones that don't have perfect pitch only have relative pitch but have learned what one particular pitch sounds like and can identify the interval between what you played and the pitch they learned so they can figure out what you played. That would be the majority of the people who can identify the note, and there are a startling number of musicians who can identify notes that way, but like I said that's not perfect pitch. They often use a unique note on their primary instrument as reference, a shakuhachi player might use Ro. Those that have perfect pitch could tell you what note you played from having learned how each note sounds regardless of what note it is, that's kind of rare, I've never met anyone who could convince me that they have true perfect pitch. Most are humble enough to say that they are in the category of people with relative pitch but have learned a reference pitch. All of the claims I've heard of perfect pitch came second person or conveniently when there weren't any instruments around to test them.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2008-02-26 07:58:55)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#7 2008-02-24 03:19:07

amokrun
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From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

This brings up an interesting question. Since notes are essentially arbitrary things that were simply decided on by some people, how would someone with no knowledge of such things be able to say that something sounds bad if it was slightly flat but the intervals were perfect? I can understand it if you have trained your ear to hear specific pitches but if you have no idea about C or D, how could you tell that someone who plays slightly sharp consistently is doing so? As far as I've understood, notes have actually been re-assigned to different pitches several times over the course of the history of music theory. That alone would suggest that it isn't any particular pitch that sounds just right.

Personally I've learned to know how different notes on some given shakuhachi sound like when I play it. I can't generally tell the pitches when someone else plays or if I have a new instrument. On the instruments I play regularly I can usually say that my Ro is flat because it vibrates differently or some such. For me it gets more difficult as I go up in pitch as the highest notes don't vibrate the same way lower ones do and it becomes harder to tell slightly wrong sound from perfect one because the sound color is very similar either way. Ro, on the other hand, sounds very different if you bend it one way or another and many flutes seem to have unique quirks where some specific amount of too flat or too sharp produces a distinct sound that isn't there otherwise.

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#8 2008-02-24 07:16:04

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Zakarius wrote:

JWould you argue that a solo honkyoku player's pitch is less important since they're not collaborating with other musicians, or is this a question of when only the discerned ear can tell an accomplished player from an amateur?

Zak -- jinashi size queen

I would suggest that when playing a written piece, one should decide if it is in one's interest to try to interpret the piece as the writer or transcriber intended it to be, or if the interpretation is unique to the player (and indeed, both may ultimately be the same.)  If the latter is the case, there is no question that all caution should be thrown to the wind, but if an attempt to portray the piece at least as it is written, then being in tune, note for note with oneself is of utmost importance.  Is it necessary that ro is played as D?  I think not.  It's been discussed elsewhere, but it appears, in the case of honkyoku in the Kinko tradition at least, that instrument was rarely suggested in the writing of the piece.  I would imagine, and I encourage other more knowledgeable people to suggest differently if it is so, that instrument choice was a matter of convention and/or availability and not necessarily of psycho-acoustic significance.  As such Zak, rock on wink


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#9 2008-02-24 10:03:36

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

If you have an in-tune shakuhachi, a modern 1.8 for instance, playing in pitch also means you're playing kari enough to get a good shakuhachi tone. If you're always 20 cents short of concert pitch, you're not getting as rich a sound as you could and you'll probably have problems with dai meris as well. Students who miss lessons for a long time often drift down in pitch, as playing somewhat meri becomes a habit. In this case a tuner is crucial, or recordings to play along with. If you don't have either, always play higher than you think you need to -- for a beginner on a decent flute, chances are you'll rarely be too sharp.

And yes, sankyoku is great practice for pitch and for playing kari enough (as well as meri enough on tsu meris etc.). If there are no koto and shamisen players nearby, as is the case with most of us, there are many sankyoku recordings around that you can play along with -- which is really fun.

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#10 2008-02-24 11:05:17

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Great insights in all of your responses! Thanks big_smile

(Now if I can only figure out how to get a C# Ro dai meri on my D# 3.3!)

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#11 2008-02-24 17:15:11

Marcelo Kaneta
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From: Brazil
Registered: 2008-02-24
Posts: 13
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Well, if it means something here, shamisen and koto have variable tuning and reach so many shakuhachi tunings.
Is easiest to adapt shamisen and koto to the shakuhachi player blowing. And I think that this "perfect pitch" maybe exists only related to the modern shakuhachi. The exact pitches came with Japan's westernization. Playing min'you we don't work with this exact tunes.
Try to listen gagaku music. So many things changed in today's gagaku but you will listen clearly what I'm talking about this no exact pitch for an ensemble. And ancient shakuhachi made part in this musical formation in the past.

Anyway, there is a correct position to play for the perfect execution of meri and dai-meri techniques, am I right?. But its a thing that I don't know how to do yet. smile


"The long journey reveals the depth of one’s faith."

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#12 2008-02-25 08:41:04

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

nyokai wrote:

If you have an in-tune shakuhachi, a modern 1.8 for instance, playing in pitch also means you're playing kari enough to get a good shakuhachi tone. If you're always 20 cents short of concert pitch, you're not getting as rich a sound as you could and you'll probably have problems with dai meris as well.

I always ask myself about something: we need to play letting a margin to play kari? I mean, how much margin we need left to make the tone raise on kari notes? If we play Ro in a 1.8 (D) how much can we raise from there? 
 
I don't know if I make me understood...


Thank you all one more time...


Peace


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#13 2008-02-25 10:08:46

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

I always ask myself about something: we need to play letting a margin to play kari? I mean, how much margin we need left to make the tone raise on kari notes? If we play Ro in a 1.8 (D) how much can we raise from there?

First, 'playing kari' generally means playing AT the correct pitch (that is: not meri)--it CAN mean raising the pitch--but usually means playing with head upright, so that the pitch is not flat.

It is common for beginners to play a bit flat, because the embouchure development is not yet good enough to give a good sound UNLESS one plays more or less flat.

When you DO play kari, you then have more 'room' to play meri (at the right pitch), and then dai meri.

It terms of raising the pitch: There is less room to raise the pitch without changing the sound quality (it gets breathier, of course) than to lower the pitch (meri).

Make sense?

eB

Last edited by edosan (2008-02-25 10:19:32)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2008-02-25 10:57:23

Marcelo Kaneta
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From: Brazil
Registered: 2008-02-24
Posts: 13
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Interesting.. so that's why its hard to me to rise the pitch..
I play always low a bit from D (in a 1.8) 'cause I feel a need for a stronger breath to put shakuhachi exactly in D.
So.. let's practice!


"The long journey reveals the depth of one’s faith."

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#15 2008-02-25 11:21:27

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Long tones

Long tones

Long tones

Daily

And pay attention to getting the pitch up.

But mostly

Long tones

Daily


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#16 2008-02-25 11:26:16

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Thank you Edosan...

You opened a window in my mind...

I was not thinking in kari in this terms...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#17 2008-02-25 22:16:40

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

With reference to kari playing, in the kinko piece Shou Chiku Bai  (written in Chikuyusha notation) there is an indication to play chi as  dai kari in the first line .  Similarily, in the piece Ne Bikki no Matsu, ro is indicated to be played dai kari.  Within my group, we will typically play ro dai kari as tsu no meri and chi dai kari as ri no meri.  I'm not sure if this is a common work around or not.  Obviously it's an attempt to play in pitch where the pitch of dai kari is difficult to obtain for most players otherwise.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#18 2008-02-26 06:44:20

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Jeff Cairns wrote:

in the kinko piece Shou Chiku Bai  (written in Chikuyusha notation) there is an indication to play chi as  dai kari in the first line .

Not just Sho Chiku Bai, but the vast majority of sankyoku are in a scale such that a chi before a ri or a chi before a hi (melody moving upward) is played as a ri meri. Depending on your notation, the indication may be chi dai kari, chi kari (most common, with just a ka next to the note), or just plain chi. In any case, it's played as a ri meri. When the melody moves downward, as in chi to re, it's a regular chi.

Kari in this case indicates a pitch of the scale, not a technique -- it should not be confused with any directive to raise your head further.

There are relatively few sankyoku where this is not the case, most notably Chidori, which is a fairly modern composition but written in a scale derived from much older music, without the B-flat of the chi kari. In Chidori a chi is a chi is a chi -- rare in sankyoku.

The chi kari or chi dai kari notation to mean ri meri also appears in several honkyoku, for instance many versions of Kumoi Jishi and Azuma no Kyoku. Again, in these pieces when going from a chi up to a ri or up to a hi, you play the chi as a ri meri.

This is all very confusing for those new to shakuhachi. Please, if you're new, refer back to Edosan's post: when talking about TECHNIQUE, kari means head raised to its normal level, not higher. In other words, kari means "not at all meri." The specialized use of the term with the note chi in sankyoku and several honkyoku has nothing to do with this.

(As for the ro dai kari in Nebiki no Matsu, I don't remember that. Ro dai meri is not a common notation. I'll have to take a look, especially since I'm supposed to perform it this spring!)

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#19 2008-02-26 07:52:59

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Nyokai, here's a question that I haven't had answered to my satisfaction and since you seem to know something about it, perhaps you could answer this for me.  If a note written as dai kari wasn't intended to be played as the note in question raised by playing it in a hyper kari manner, why was it written that way and not simply as the note above it played meri?  Notes being what they are, it seems that there may be something to it other than pitch.  Is it possible that more force is intended behind the the note?
The ro dai kari I noticed first in Nebiki no Matsu is in the second line of the Chikuyusha notation at the end of the third pharse from the bottom.

Last edited by Jeff Cairns (2008-02-26 07:55:24)


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#20 2008-02-26 08:41:02

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Yes, this question comes up a lot! There was once a long thread on it here, but I couldn't find it.

No, you don't play the chi/ri meri with more force, as it is often a passing note, as in the phrase re-chi-ri, where the chi has the shortest rhythmic value (equivalent to a Western "dotted" rhythm).

I have heard several explanations of the historical reason behind this notation weirdness (chi used to be a higher note on the flute, the meri sign didn't used to exist, theoretical correctness similar to using B-sharp instead of C-natural as the fourth note in the F-sharp major scale, etc. etc.). The bottom line is that the notation, even notation as standardized as the Chikuyusha scores, is still just a reminder of what you supposedly already know by ear. Those who grew up surrounded by the music would certainly go for the ri meri pretty automatically, and once you've played a bunch of sankyoku you get very used to this convention.

Aargh, I seem to have misplaced or lent out my copy of Nebiki no Matsu -- going to have to order a new one! If you want to email me a scan of the phrase in question, with a little bit of context around it, I'd be happy to take a look. But the general rule is: whatever works musically with the string players you're playing with!

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#21 2008-02-26 20:55:42

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

Nyokai, I certainly knew the pragmatic reasons for it and absolutely understand the idea that whatever works with the string players, etc. but I was wondering if a finger could be pointed more directly at where and how the music went in that direction in a notated form.  I play with koto and shamisen enough to have the sense of phrasing you speak of, so I'm not confused by it.  I suppose that it's sufficient to say that at one time in the past, someone was forced to make a decision and made it.  And it's that decision, which may have made perfect sense to the practices of the day that we live with now and basically must accept...questionable or not.
As for the ro/tsu no meri in Nebiki no Matsu, I don't question it at all.  It makes perfect harmonic sense.  My questions were more about the strangeness of notation.  Thanks for your invaluable answers.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#22 2008-02-27 18:35:13

axolotl
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From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

So are there no non-passing dai kari notes that really are 'hyper-kari'? 

--

I just got a Peterson Stroboflip tuner, which is totally awesome and fantastically accurate.  With the Stroboflip in tow, I have been blowing long tones to tune up.  I'm also trying to stop in the middle of a phrase and hold a note to see how close I am...which is sometimes "not very".  I found my present inclination was to play everything a wee bit sharp--correcting that strengthens the tone.

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#23 2008-02-28 14:46:22

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

axolotl wrote:

So are there no non-passing dai kari notes that really are 'hyper-kari'?

In sankyoku, I know of no examples where a kari note is played more kari by raising the head higher than the normal kari position. It is too hard to be precise that way.

In Meian honkyoku, there are many examples of notes that are raised, via head movement, beyond the normal kari pitch (to "dai kari") and then lowered back down -- Echigo Sanya comes to mind. This is a special effect, though, not a technique for playing a particular pitch accurately.

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#24 2008-02-29 09:58:28

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

This morning I was studying Kurokami as it appears on Koga's book and there I found a Chi who have on his side a kari symbol...I listen to Koga performance and I think he really play  this Chi a little up...  (???)

Peace...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#25 2008-02-29 10:33:12

mrosenlof
Member
From: Louisville Colorado USA
Registered: 2006-03-01
Posts: 82

Re: Correct pitch, how accurate should you be?

I don't have Kurokami within reach, but as I have learned this from my teacher that note is played as Ri meri.  Or Hi meri if you're in Kan.

I'm only a two-year beginner now, so take this with that in mind.  The only note I've seen so far that is really played dai-kari is san no U and it _really_ isn't dai-kari either, it just takes a lot of air and a high aim to get it up to the correct pitch.  (for me at least!)


Mike Rosenlof

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