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#1 2008-02-12 22:34:14

Tom Deaver
Flutemaker
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 8

Evidence

Could someone who has played many older shakuhachi, John Singer and Peter Hill come to mind, kindly offer evidence of the need to open the second finger hole when playing hi (Kinko fingering)?  What happens when the second finger hole is not opened?  What happens with the first hole open and the second hole closed?  What happens with both first and second open?  And so on.  Thanks, Tom.

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#2 2008-02-25 21:49:00

Bruce
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2006-12-10
Posts: 65
Website

Re: Evidence

Well, I'm no expert on this, but, due to Peter Hill's frequent visits and his penchant for bringing really nice old flutes along, I've had a chance to play a number of old flutes.

My (admittedly limited) experience suggests that playing hi with 1, 2, & 5 closed often makes no difference from the accepted Kinko fingering (1 & 5 closed).  On a few flutes, it will produce just a bit of flattening.

On flutes that play flat with 1 & 5 closed, as many older shakuhachi do, opening #5 and closing #4 will raise the pitch nicely, so much so that, often some meri is necessary to avoid being too sharp.

On the three old flutes I have around right now, playing with only #5 closed produces about the same pitch as 1 & 5.

All of this is dependent on the specific flute being played. 

YMMV


Everything is perfect, it just needs a little improvement.
        - Suzuki Roshi

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#3 2008-02-28 12:19:20

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Evidence

Tom Deaver wrote:

Could someone who has played many older shakuhachi, John Singer and Peter Hill come to mind, kindly offer evidence of the need to open the second finger hole when playing hi (Kinko fingering)?  What happens when the second finger hole is not opened?  What happens with the first hole open and the second hole closed?  What happens with both first and second open?  And so on.  Thanks, Tom.

Hi Tom, after our recent correspondence, I noticed something you mentioned for the first time!

I'm posting this finding for the benefit of others interested in this esoteric fingering maneuver.

Here are some flutes I tested for the different ways of playing Hi Go on very different 1.8 shakuhachi.

http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/rangeof18s.jpg

#1) Vintage flute. About 80 years.
Vintage Hi Go

#2) My 1.8 made in Japan with Kinya to Tamai Chikusen's bore specs.
Yung Hi Go

#3) Wooden Golden Phoenix
Wooden Flute Hi Go

#4) Earth Model
Earth Model Hi Go


I tried to played each flute with a neutral breath so that I could feel the difference in the flute. I played Hi go in the standard fingering and then fingered #2 first, then #1, then opened and closed both.  I noticed that my Earth model, the only natural bore flute, reacted to opening #2 the most. It went audibly sharp. The others had very little or no audible pitch difference. All went sharper by opening #1. All but #4 went louder and sharper by opening #1 and #2. #4 lost the note on this fingering with a neutral breath. But when pushed, it came back sharper, but not louder like the other flutes. Interestingly enough, #4 is one of the finest old Vintage Kinko flutes I've had the pleasure of playing. It is hankonashi.

In my experience, most jiari flutes react similarly according to my findings above - little or no difference with #2, sharper with #1, more volume and sharper with both. But, I've never encounter losing the note on a modern flute as I did on #4. It could be that I rarely play Hi Go with a neutral breath.  i do nwo tha Hi Go is often slightly flat. Sometimes, Hi go doesn't work on old Jinashi shakuhachi unless one of the alternate fingerings are employed. I also notice that long Jinashi flutes sometimes work better using another fingering.

What did this test tell me? Well, that playing Hi Go well is not easy when playing a succession of flutes! smile


Best, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#4 2008-02-28 16:02:09

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Evidence

Yungflutes wrote:

Interestingly enough, #4 is one of the finest old Vintage Kinko flutes I've had the pleasure of playing. It is hankonashi.

You meant '#1' here, right?

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2008-02-28 18:58:36

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Evidence

edosan wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

Interestingly enough, #4 is one of the finest old Vintage Kinko flutes I've had the pleasure of playing. It is hankonashi.

You meant '#1' here, right?

eB

Hi Ed, Yes, I meant #1. Too many #s!

Thanks for reading carefully:)

Best, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#6 2008-02-29 07:15:14

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Evidence

Yungflutes wrote:

edosan wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

Interestingly enough, #4 is one of the finest old Vintage Kinko flutes I've had the pleasure of playing. It is hankonashi.

You meant '#1' here, right?

eB

Hi Ed, Yes, I meant #1. Too many #s!

Thanks for reading carefully:)

Best, Perry

In my own careful reading, I saw that that Tom asked about Hi and not Hi Go! Doh!

So here what happened with Kan no Hi with the flutes above.

Vintage #1) - No change with hole #2, slightly sharp for #1, no change or slightly flat with both off.
Yung #2) - No change with #2, less sharp for #1, no change with both.
Wood #3) - No change with #1, sharp for #2, slightly flat with both.
Earth #4)  - No change with #2, sharp with #1, no sound with both off!

So, the difference here is a Jinashi may not produce Kan no Hi with both #1 and #2 off. This is something I've experience with Jinashi sometimes.
Seems like there is a similarity with the jiari flutes. Just slight pitch variations, due to bore dimensions I'm sure.


I hope this is evidence smile

Best, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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