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#1 2008-06-05 06:06:17

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

holes bumps and pertrubation

Hi everybody.

In Ken La Cosse “How to make shakuhachi” we can read next:
“Keep in mind that each hole drilled will slightly flatten the pitch of the holes below. To compensate, the first hole can be tuned a bit sharp, the second less sharp, the third less sharp than the second, the fourth less sharp than the third, and the fifth on exact pitch.”

I was never giving heed to this effect before in my small flutemaking practise. I was working with non root bamboo with thin(near 4mm) walls, but now I have some root-end pieces with 6-7mm walls. And I think it’s time to pay more attention to this effect.

I’ve read some about pertrubation theory in navaching.com. So I’ve made some simple graph’s to understand the effect Ken talk’s about. The blue colour matches the zones there substracting material in the bore causes notes pitch flattening, and the green – pitch sharpening. To look how holes bumps affect on the notes pitches I’ve made some approximate computations. So I assumed the coordinate system from -10 to +10, it is the abstract units that hole bump can affect on the note pitch. So positive value matches the pitch sharpening, and negative value matches pitch flattening. In every case I sum all values to appraise approximately how all holes bumps affect on the note pitch.


Ro
http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/6/1/1-web.jpg
2,3,4,5 holes flatten’s the pitch of Ro, 1 hole sharpen’s the pitch of Ro

Next are the approximate values that every hole bump affect on the Ro pitch

1 hole = +2
2 hole = -4
3 hole = -6
4 hole = -8
5 hole = -6
In sum we have -22 Ro pitch flattening

*****************************************************************

Tsu
http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/6/2/1-web.jpg
3,4,5 holes flatten’s the pitch of Tsu, 2 hole sharpen’s the pitch of Tsu

2 hole = +4
3 hole = -1
4 hole = -6
5 hole = -9
In sum we have -12 Tsu pitch flattening

*****************************************************************

Re
http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/6/3/1-web.jpg
4,5 holes flatten’s the pitch of Re, 3 hole sharpen’s the pitch of Re

3 hole = +4
4 hole = -3
5 hole = -7
In sum we have -6 Re pitch flattening

*****************************************************************

Chi
http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/6/4/1-web.jpg
5 holes flatten’s the pitch of Chi, 4 hole sharpen’s the pitch of Chi

4 hole = +3
5 hole = -4
In sum we have -1 Chi pitch flattening

*****************************************************************

Ri
http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/6/5/1-web.jpg
5 hole sharpen’s the pitch of Ri

5 hole = +2

We have +2 Ri pitch sharpening

*****************************************************************

Go No Hi
http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/6/6/1-web.jpg

There is no holes to affect the pich of this note smile

It is just very approximate computations, but they show the general tendencies in the gamefield.

So we can see that hole bumps flatten most the pitch of Ro, then less the pitch of Tsu, more less the pitch of Re and so on. And to bring notes in their correct places we have to tune Ro most sharp, Tsu less sharp, Re more less sharp and so on. I can suppose that Ken was talking about this, and that he numbered holes from bottom(Ro) hole. I hope my computations and reasonings are in correct way.

I want to ask makers to share their expierience in this practice. So my questions are next. How much pich of Ro flattens then all flute holes are made. How sharp do you tune Tsu? How sharp do you tune Re? And another notes. To be more concrete we can talk about 1.8 shakuhachi. Of course there is no constant values, because every bamboo piece is unique, and of course the situation depends on a hole sizes, but we can talk about some middle values.

And one more little question. In my computations we can see that thumb hole can sharp the Ri note. Does it happens in practice?

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2008-06-05 06:11:10)


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#2 2008-06-05 11:57:50

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: holes bumps and pertrubation

If I open up the bore of a flute and find that ro plays about 20 or 30 cents sharp of a particular tonic, I know there is a chance that it will play on or near the tonic once the holes are drilled. From there I know that ro will flatten a little when hole 1 is drilled, then ro and tsu will flatten more when hole 2 is drilled. And so on.. I don't pay much attention to the exact numbers but instead make sure the holes become progressively closer to correct pitch with each drilling. I cheat a little flat for all holes so they can be sharpened a bit by extra undercutting.

Without some type of system to compensate for this progressive pitch change, (scientific, by "feel" or whatever works) the result is a flute which strays sharper as it ascends the scale.

I tend to go at it by starting with an understanding of the physics then working by "feel."

For example, I like to think of shakuhachi tuning with a baseball analogy. Let's say I'm playing center field with a runner on third base with one out. The batter hits a fly ball to me. First, I have to judge the distance of the fly ball. (The tonic) Then, I set myself up to be in the best position to catch the fly and throw home if needed. (Marking the holes) Once the catch is made I picture throwing the runner out at home and the trajectory of the throw needed to do so. Not too far, not too short. I make the throw (drill the holes) and the runner is tagged out sliding into home. End of innning! (Well tuned flute!)

http://www.mujitsu.com/images/holesharp.jpg

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#3 2008-06-16 05:01:03

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: holes bumps and pertrubation

The correct measurements for the total length of the variously-pitched flutes and their hole placements are well known. What I have always done, and what the makers I know do, is to simply use a schema, cut the two parts of the bamboo (if jointed) so that the length is correct, mark the hole positions and drill (either before or after adding ji, depending on the material you use). Of course you have to know the diameter of the holes that the schema is based on and use the correct drill bits. These templates automatically take into account the flattening caused by the extra compliance introduced into the bore by closed tone holes.

After that, and when the bore is correct so that the octaves are true, small tuning corrections can be done by selective undercutting and/or adding small amounts of ji and urushi inside the holes to form crescents, or if you are John Neptune get out your knife and start carving out the holes...

Meijiro in Tokyo sells sets of sticks with all the lengths and hole positions marked out (different sets for flutes based strictly on length, or based on the Western diatonic scale) and IIRC that Japanese website also has graphs with both hole schemae and bore profiles as graphs.

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2008-06-16 05:01:41)

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#4 2008-06-16 10:53:49

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: holes bumps and pertrubation

Toby wrote:

The correct measurements for the total length of the variously-pitched flutes and their hole placements are well known.

<looks around dumbfounded> I thought it was impossible to have well-known hole placements because of the variable bore width.

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#5 2008-06-17 06:39:20

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: holes bumps and pertrubation

Acoustically speaking, hole placements do not vary according to bore profile but only according to air column length, but there is an association depending on both hole diameter and the ratio of hole diameter to bore diameter , as smaller holes have larger end corrections, and there is some very complicated math to figure out the latter value. However, I have a number of different 1.8 jiaris, ranging from a very-large-bore instrument made in Meiji, to more modern flutes by Seppo, Shinzan, Chikuzan and others, and the hole placements are quite similar, to the point where tuning can be done by the methods I described, or at worst slight widening of the holes.

When I took John Neptune's jinashi workshop he passed out a sheet with hole placements as a ratio of total length, which he uses to determine hole placements on all his jinashi instruments. The Meijiro measuring sticks perform the same function.

FWIW,

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2008-06-17 06:45:18)

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