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#26 2008-06-11 15:32:57

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
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From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
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Re: Stories of Fuke

I agree with most of your post except this part

lowonthetotem wrote:

Some may disagree with me, but Zen is not a philosophy but rather a religious tradition within the Mahayana Buddhist tradition.

The Fuke monks followed a strict moral code and a rather severe regimen of physical training, including Shakuhachi and martial arts

Now for the religion thing I totally disagree and my own opinion is that as soon as you get all religous about IT. From this point what you are doing has nothing to do with Zen.

But for the rest of your post I totally support your opinion on New Age stuff that will promote not readin or studying anything and yet claim some form of knowledge or achievement.

Humm for the Komuso training in martial arts what are you refereing to exactly? Budo has nothing to do with the Komuso other than the fact that many Komuso were ex Bushi so of course they would have had prior training in Martial arts. The only school that I heard of that had some martial arts tied with it in Japan was the Shugendo School.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#27 2008-06-11 15:49:46

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

I know that lots of folks don't buy into the religion of it, but I am surprised you say that Gishin, since you are ordained as a Preist.  Are you a Preist of Philosophy?  Not arguing, just curious.  As for precepts and moral practice, it has been said by all the Major teachers, Soto and Rinzai.  Again, I won't argue it.  I know many people gravitate to Zen and Buddhism specifically because they have a disdain for religion.

I read that Komuso'd developed a characteristic syncopation in their playing from practicing directly after training in martial arts as part of their physical practice.  I did read it on the web, so that makes it suspect.  Let me try to find the link.


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#28 2008-06-11 16:02:12

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
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From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Stories of Fuke

lowonthetotem wrote:

I know that lots of folks don't buy into the religion of it, but I am surprised you say that Gishin, since you are ordained as a Preist.  Are you a Preist of Philosophy?

smile!

Because I am ordained I should be all so saintly speaking and moralize people with precepts and rules and quote Sutras as if the Buddha had really spoken or written those words and tell them to follow that stuff 100% ? As in many faith,philo or religion there is so many stuff that makes no sense in Buddhism. Should we follow that  cauze some fool says it is so. if you think it is so  then it is not much different that being in a cult.

Now as a priest there is no excuse for not studying that is for sure. Now that being said I have seen what is done with Zen in general in North-America and I want nothing to do with it. I dont see much value in moralizing and telling people what to think. When someone comes to the Dojo what is done is SIT Drink Tea and Blow Shakuhachi and that is all and this is all I will give.

My role as priest and in some fashion you can call me a failure is to deal with the Japanese population in my area for Funerals, memorials, festivals etc.. since they know what to expect and undrstand what I am and wat is my role.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#29 2008-06-11 16:08:28

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

When the samurai's swords were confiscated by the Tokugawa Shogunate, the Ronin found it very easy to fit into the Komuso way since the concentration needed to learn Shakuhachi was similar to their sword training, and, the shape of the Edo period Shakuhachi resembled a hand held weapon, and no doubt was used as one as well! In the daily life of the Komuso monks, the day included morning zazen (sitting zen), suizen, begging, and martial arts training. In the rural Aomori district of northern Tohoku, Japan, one of the most famous schools was the Kimpu School (Nezasa-ha) which developed a unique technique of breathing called "komi-buki" or "concentrated" or "packed breath", where an intentional steady, pulse-rhythm is created while blowing the Shakuhachi by contracting and relaxing the diaphragm. It is said that it came about when after the Komuso Monks finished a hard training in their martial arts, which included jiujutsu (soft technique) and kenpo (sword play) they would play their shakuhachi immediately afterwards, and the pulsing sound would be from their shallow breath and fast beating hearts.

http://www.bamboo-in.com/about-us/articles.htm

This guy seemed to present a fairly detailed history, so I bought what he was writing.  Maybe you could comment Gishin.


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#30 2008-06-11 16:19:21

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Stories of Fuke

lowonthetotem wrote:

When the samurai's swords were confiscated by the Tokugawa Shogunate, the Ronin found it very easy to fit into the Komuso way since the concentration needed to learn Shakuhachi was similar to their sword training, and, the shape of the Edo period Shakuhachi resembled a hand held weapon, and no doubt was used as one as well! In the daily life of the Komuso monks, the day included morning zazen (sitting zen), suizen, begging, and martial arts training. In the rural Aomori district of northern Tohoku, Japan, one of the most famous schools was the Kimpu School (Nezasa-ha) which developed a unique technique of breathing called "komi-buki" or "concentrated" or "packed breath", where an intentional steady, pulse-rhythm is created while blowing the Shakuhachi by contracting and relaxing the diaphragm. It is said that it came about when after the Komuso Monks finished a hard training in their martial arts, which included jiujutsu (soft technique) and kenpo (sword play) they would play their shakuhachi immediately afterwards, and the pulsing sound would be from their shallow breath and fast beating hearts.

http://www.bamboo-in.com/about-us/articles.htm

This guy seemed to present a fairly detailed history, so I bought what he was writing.  Maybe you could comment Gishin.

Asumptions thats all.

I heard that one so many times. There was a couple of famous incidents in which a Komuso would bash someone to rob them or bash someone in self defense with their flute  Komuso were seen many times as more of a nuisance than anything else. This can happen but is not the standard or has nothing to do with the whole Fuke thing. But his quote of including martial arts training makes no sense to me as part of the Fuke school itself never read or seen that. what I suspect is again are assumptions based on the fact that there was many ex Bushi in their ranks. So of course if Komuso X was an ex samurai there would be a good chance he would be training in martial arts but this has nothing to do with the Fuke Shu itself. it is stuff like this that mixes people up and makes them search for stuff that does not exist or did not exist in the way presented.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#31 2008-06-11 16:23:00

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

I can appreciate what you say about being a priest.  Precepts are not about moralizing, in the western sense.  They are a protection.  Not feeling poorly about past actions helps provide a quiet in the mind that I find very helpful in meditation.  For this reason I strive to follow precepts, but I am not always on my best behavior.  I have a furious habit of drinking too much on occasion, and I lose my temper sometimes.  As a result, my practice usually suffers.  I believe many people see a dicotomy between morality and utility.  Through my practice, I've found that this dicotomy is not necessarily so.  Practicing the precepts, as imperfectly as I do, is very utilitarian to the rest of my practice, not because I was told, which I was, but because I can see it for myself.  I have a teacher, but I don't buy much of what he says right off the bat, usually to my own detriment.  I am sorry if I sounded moralising.  I did not mention any precepts specifically in an attempt not to stress them too much.


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#32 2008-06-11 16:28:59

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
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From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Stories of Fuke

lowonthetotem wrote:

I can appreciate what you say about being a priest.  Precepts are not about moralizing, in the western sense.  They are a protection.  Not feeling poorly about past actions helps provide a quiet in the mind that I find very helpful in meditation.  For this reason I strive to follow precepts, but I am not always on my best behavior.  I have a furious habit of drinking too much on occasion, and I lose my temper sometimes.  As a result, my practice usually suffers.  I believe many people see a dicotomy between morality and utility.  Through my practice, I've found that this dicotomy is not necessarily so.  Practicing the precepts, as imperfectly as I do, is very utilitarian to the rest of my practice, not because I was told, which I was, but because I can see it for myself.  I have a teacher, but I don't buy much of what he says right off the bat, usually to my own detriment.  I am sorry if I sounded moralising.  I did not mention any precepts specifically in an attempt not to stress them too much.

Very nicely written thanks for the clarification. In your view time and place your practice and understanding seems pretty solid and has a real base I am glad to see this.

But sadly most people when getting in the precepts thing are translating precepts into Catholic sins type of a deal and when getting on the sutra boat the other side goes into the "THOSE ARE THE TRUE WRODS OF THE BUDDHA!" Just like some crazy Baptist or evangelical preacher.

So with a familly , secualr job and my own practice this is why I tend to be very reclusive and only serve where I am asked to serve by the people that know me. I dont feel I could handle preaching or teaching Zen. Not with my temper. So Shakuhachi and tea it is!!


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#33 2008-06-11 16:31:31

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: Stories of Fuke

Asumptions thats all.

I heard that one so many times. There was a couple of famous incidents in which a Komuso would bash someone to rob them or bash someone in self defense with their flute  Komuso were seen many times as more of a nuisance than anything else. This can happen but is not the standard or has nothing to do with the whole Fuke thing. But his quote of including martial arts training makes no sense to me as part of the Fuke school itself never read or seen that. what I suspect is again are assumptions based on the fact that there was many ex Bushi in their ranks. So of course if Komuso X was an ex samurai there would be a good chance he would be training in martial arts but this has nothing to do with the Fuke Shu itself. it is stuff like this that mixes people up and makes them search for stuff that does not exist or did not exist in the way presented.

You should look that guy up and give him hell.  He is in BC though.  Thanks for the stimulating conversation Gishin.  It helped me get through another day at work.  I'll post another story tomorrow.  Thanks for the corrections.


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#34 2008-06-11 16:33:00

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

But sadly most people when getting in the precepts thing are translating precepts into Catholic sins type of a deal and when getting on the sutra boat the other side goes into the "THOSE ARE THE TRUE WRODS OF THE BUDDHA!" Just like some crazy Baptist or evangelical preacher.

Yes, like the despots and Nirvana seekers.


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#35 2008-06-11 16:54:04

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Stories of Fuke

lowonthetotem wrote:

Asumptions thats all.

I heard that one so many times. There was a couple of famous incidents in which a Komuso would bash someone to rob them or bash someone in self defense with their flute  Komuso were seen many times as more of a nuisance than anything else. This can happen but is not the standard or has nothing to do with the whole Fuke thing. But his quote of including martial arts training makes no sense to me as part of the Fuke school itself never read or seen that. what I suspect is again are assumptions based on the fact that there was many ex Bushi in their ranks. So of course if Komuso X was an ex samurai there would be a good chance he would be training in martial arts but this has nothing to do with the Fuke Shu itself. it is stuff like this that mixes people up and makes them search for stuff that does not exist or did not exist in the way presented.

You should look that guy up and give him hell.  He is in BC though.  Thanks for the stimulating conversation Gishin.  It helped me get through another day at work.  I'll post another story tomorrow.  Thanks for the corrections.

No to sure about that. Alcvin is a great guy. The only thing is that the way its written it leads people in believing that the Komuso were into martials arts as part of their regimen. When in reality there was individuals that did practice martial ways but this was  not the totality of them.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#36 2008-06-13 08:26:31

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

Fuke always used to roam about in the street markets, ringing
a bell and shouting: "When it comes in brightness, I hit the
brightness. When it approaches in darkness, I hit the darkness.
When it comes from the four quarters and eight directions (of
space), I hit like a whirlwind, and if it comes out of the empty
sky, I thrash like a flail."
The master made one of his attendants go there, instructing him
to grab Fuke while speaking and ask him "If it does not come in
any of these ways, what then?"
Fuke freed himself from the grasp of the attendant and said:
"Tomorrow is a vegetarian banquet in the monastery of Great
Compassion."
The attendant returned and told the master, who remarked: "I
was always intrigued with this fellow."


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#37 2008-06-13 08:42:22

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Stories of Fuke

I strongly sugest readins the following posts.

This case has been posted and discussed quite a while ago.

http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=1324


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#38 2008-06-13 09:38:01

Lorka
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Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Stories of Fuke

I like what you said about the Dojo Gishin....

"SIT Drink Tea and Blow Shakuhachi"

Simple is best.   


My variation:

Close eyes, Lie on couch, drink Rakir (bulgarian alcoholic drink), and blow shakuhaci.... repeat often



My variation while in lesson:

Sit, Blow Shakuhachi, avoid dangerous zen stick from Gishin


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#39 2008-06-13 09:40:41

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Stories of Fuke

Nice one Matt!

Will have to post pics of your bruises wink


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#40 2008-06-13 13:32:44

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

I enjoyed the dissertation Gishin, and the subsequesnt discussion.  It's funny because it seems like people don't mind there being a Zen forum, they'd just prefer nobody wrote anything in it.  Good stuff.

My take on Fuke's bell ringing is rather less involved.

It is fine to come as you are, just don't come as you were.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#41 2008-06-18 09:56:51

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

65. One day at the street market Fuke was begging all and sundry
to give him a robe. Everybody offered him one, but he did not
want any of them.
The master made the superior buy a coffin, and when Fuke
returned, said to him: "There, I had this robe made for you."
Fuke shouldered the coffin, and went back to the street market,
calling loudly: "Rinzai had this robe made for me! I am off to the
East Gate to enter transformation" (to die)." The people of the
market crowded after him, eager to look.
Fuke said: "No, not today. Tomorrow, I shall go to the South
Gate to enter transformation." And so it went for three days,
until nobody believed it any longer.
On the fourth day, and now without any spectators, Fuke went
alone outside the city walls, and laid himself into the coffin. He
asked a traveler who chanced by to nail down the lid. The news
spread at once, and the people of the market rushed there.
On opening the coffin, they found that the body had vanished,
but from high up in the sky they heard the ring of his hand bell.


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#42 2008-06-18 18:13:31

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Stories of Fuke

lowonthetotem wrote:

The Fuke monks followed a strict moral code

Really? Most accounts have them roaming the countryside and getting into drunken brawls.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#43 2008-06-19 08:33:20

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Stories of Fuke

Really? Most accounts have them roaming the countryside and getting into drunken brawls.

As Gishen pointed out, it is likely to be problematic to characterize the actions of the entire group by accounts of a few members, whether it be pious actions or deplorable ones.  Just as with any group, there are dangers in generalizing.  Furthermore, I think some notice should be taken of who has written the history.  Considering that the sect was disbanded, it would serve the purpose of those disbanding the sect to popularize accounts like those you mention while down-playing other, less bombastic actions.  They did have ex-Ronin among them.  They were infiltrated by spies for the Tokugawa.  However, the sect existed for four hundred years prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate taking power and only two hundred years after.  What is "popular" about them seems to come mainly from this later period.

As I mentioned in another thread, the 200+ rules of the Vinaya arose from specific actions by monks and nuns of the early Sangha.  Many of them had deplorable moral character.  However, many of them were genuinely good people.  As a sect, the Komuso had as strict a moral code as any monastic order.  It is likely that not every monk lived up to it, and it is likely these monks that "make the paper."  I apologize if I made a statement that generalises the actions of their more reserved members to all of them, but I wouldn't make the mistake in the other direction either.  Although, I imagine accounts of brawling monks is much more exciting and interesting than the regular beggin and meditating variety.


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#44 2008-06-19 08:49:58

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Stories of Fuke

lowonthetotem wrote:

Really? Most accounts have them roaming the countryside and getting into drunken brawls.

As Gishen pointed out, it is likely to be problematic to characterize the actions of the entire group by accounts of a few members, whether it be pious actions or deplorable ones..

I don't think that being a rabble rouser and causing trouble is deplorable. It's fun.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#45 2008-06-19 09:06:26

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Posts: 529
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Re: Stories of Fuke

Rabble rousing is one thing, but engaging in violence without participating in protection and taking what isn't given, seems rather deplorable to me.  Fighting and robbing are the stories that I have heard the most.  Still, it makes for good pulp entertainment.  I hope you didn't stop reading there.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#46 2008-06-19 09:56:52

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Posts: 529
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Re: Stories of Fuke

To my knowledge, this is the last story mentioning Fuke in the Rinzai Roku.  This is one that I could use some commentary on.

73.a. Obaku sent the master to carry a letter to Issan.
At that time Gyosan was guest muster. He took the letter and
asked: "This letter is from Obaku; but his special messenger, what
has he to do with it?"
The master slapped him.
Gyosan stopped him and said: "Elder brother, since you know
about this matter, let's cease."
Together they went to Issan who asked: "How many monks are
in the community of Master Obaku, my elder brother?"
The master replied: "Seven hundred."
Issan said: "Who is the leader?"
The master said: "His letter has just reached you." Then the
master asked Issan: "And how large is your community here?"
Issan said: "One thousand and five hundred."
The master remarked: "Too large."
Issan said: "There are quite a few at my elder brother's, Master
Obaku."
b. The master left Issan. Gyosan went with him to see him off,
and said: "If later on you go north, there will be a place for you."
The master said: "How should that happen?"
Gyosan said: "Just go there. Later there will be someone to help
you, elder brother. That someone will have a head but no tail, a
beginning but no end."
When the master later went to the prefecture of Chin, Fuke was
already there and helped the master when he started teaching.
But soon after the master had settled in there, Fuke cast off his
body and vanished.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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