Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Chris Moran wrote:

edosan wrote:

The poor, dead horse.

He has been beaten so long, and so hard, and with such wanton precision.

He has become a mere smudge of oil on the road.

Which dead shakuhachi horse are you referring to?

Vintage v. New? ... Jinashi v. Jiari (Jinuri, Jimori, take your pick)?

Kinko v. Tozan?

Myoan v. Taizan v. Honest & True Exclusively Pure Myoan?

This is an equal opportunity forum. All ryu, ages and construction methods are welcome and everybody is free to say stupid things about them 24/7/365

Equine life is done?
Northern Summer doldrum posts...
Shakuhachi Forum!

-Horse ZenPferde

absolute pitch
relative pitch
even dissonance can be beautiful ...

Kiku Day wrote:

Justin wrote:

However, with shakuhachi, it is common that some people simply cannot control their pitch. Some of them don't aim to control their pitch much. This seems especially true in schools which consider the honkyoku as not being music.

I know some players have an attitude that it is not necessary to control pitch, as you describe, Justin. However, what I have come to realise is also that many of us judge the players of "other schools" as people who can't control their pitch. And it is simply not true. Many good players from "these schools" with a spiritual approach are very conscious about intervals. We are not talking about absolute pitch as we are now talking about honkyoku - therefore solo music, and the pitch depends on the individual flute. It is therefore relative pitch we are talking about. When I first encountered the players of "these schools", I also thought they were terribly out of tune. But I came to realise that the players were intending for the intervals to be as played. You can hear it if there is stability in the playing of the pitch our ears may hear as "out of tune". You can also hear players of "these schools" having a more sensitive ear to pitch changes as they often play a little sharper to make the next interval dramatic etc. If you listen carefully, you can hear this - although they play totally "out of tune" according to Western standards.

Hi Kiku
I know what you mean. I've met people who as I said actually don't consider their honkyoku as music. One of them is a friend of mine and I love his playing (I feel it is very musical) and his instruments (he makes his own) very much. I think his lovely character has a lot to do with that.

And I've met people who play with other pitches and who intend to, since their teachers played that way. I like to use different pitches too. I studied honkyoku under Kurahashi Yoshio and he taught me a number of different pitches for the same note, to be used in different pieces. I have always been atracted to musics of "microtonal" cultures since I was a kid, so that is just added richness for me and seems very natural.

But in fact, in terms of old instruments we are really talking about the kari notes, since the kari notes are (mainly) determined by the instrument. The difference in pitches people seem to "choose" to make, seems to me to be the meri notes. I never heard anyone from any school complaining about the pitch of modern instruments.

Kiku Day wrote:

Justin wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Is there anyone here who really thinks that conforming to the even tempered Western scale is the pinnacle of musical expression? On an instrument that is not Western? That doesn't even try to make sense.

I would encourage a different question. The shakuhachi has 5 holes. Their pitch mainly determines the kari notes. What pitch do you want to play the kari notes at? And, does you shakuhachi naturally play them at that pitch?
So then we could examine Japanese ensemble music. So we would ask, what pitches do the koto and shamisen players use, and voice?
As far as I can make out, the pitches they use for our kari notes are, the same as the Western tuning. The meri notes, however, are flatter. So you have an overall system which differs from the Western tuning, but actually that does not effect the holes of the shakuhachi.

Today many play the Japanese instrument tuned at Western tempered scale. But if you listen to historical recordings they did not - at all. What determined the pitch also in ensemble music was either the voice or to some degree the shakuhachi.

Are you talking about pitch INTERVALS? That's what I was talking about. (I.e. nothing about a=440 or 442 or whatever). I was suggesting that the shakuhachi would be appropriate to follow the tuning, by which I mean pitch intervals, of the koto, shamisen and voice, since the music was composed for them. Also, a voice can sing each interval as easily as another, whereas the shakuhachi takes more effort to produce meri notes. Therefore, the shakuhachi meri notes are more likely to stray to a different pitch unintentionally than the voice.

Koto players whom I've spoken to, tune with an electric tuner (therefore 12 tone equal temperament), and then tune (what we call meri) notes down flatter, by ear. (Whether or not this is common practice, or more details, perhaps someone else can chime in).

As for alternative tunings for the kari notes, the only time I can remember people actually wanting a shakuhachi tuned in a way different from the modern standard (for Japanese music) is for some minyou players. Many play with standard tuning, but some like a flat tsu. I think that sounds lovely.

Kiku Day wrote:

Justin wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

The idea that a professional musician would not use an instrument that is not tuned to modern standards in public is also ridiculous. Then lets wipe all guitar and piano players off the face of the earth because guitars and pianos are ALWAYS out of tune when they play more than one note.

What do you mean Brian? Are you saying guitars and pianos are not tuned successfully to 12 tone equal temperament?

Yes! The piano is never tuned successfully to the 12 tone system. Impossible. Some top piano soloists travel with their own piano tuner because they can't accept the tuning of most places. And we are talking about concert halls like Wigmore Hall and the like. The point here is that it is not that these halls do not use a very good piano tuner... but that even in Western tuning there are variations! Thank God!

I heard it something like this - the piano strings can be tuned to 12 tone equal temperament, that is, their fundamental notes can be. But something happens when the ratio between string length and thickness gets more extreme. I think it is the harmonics which stray from their relation to the fundamental, so, the harmonics composing the sound make the piano sound out of tune. So the more low down and high up you go on the keys, the more you have to compensate for that when tuning. So I heard.

Brian - sounds like it is 12 tone equal temperament you don't like (it has beats, inherent compromises etc). How about Lucy tuning? Here a guitar for that:
http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html

Or here's a guitar in just intonation:
http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-06-27 10:08:54)

I'm actually a certified Buzz Feiten installer and i can tell you this much....

it makes the tuning of the guitar a million times better, but, it's still a compromise.    He's taking the "out of tuneness" of one note and moving it a bit this way or that,  and it makes the guitar sound sweeter all over.   

I've got it done to all my guitars (and basses)....and i'd never go back...especially if you play with a piano....

btw....Brian.... have you ever used it?

jacques

Understandably most people won't be carving up their fret boards to make the elaborate customizations for a just intonation. Brian, something which might interest you which needs no structural changes at all is some sweetened tuning for your strings. I have a Peterson tuner which has a sweetened tuning they created. I believe they may have several actually. Even that (just slight retuning of the strings) makes a nice difference and improvement from 12-tet.
Justin

Hi Kiku
Did any of those people make recordings? It would be nice to hear them.
Justin

Wow, that site is fantastic. Thanks for relinking, because I missed it on the forum when he first posted.

Tairaku wrote:

Honkyoku seems to be the only music in the world that has slowed down over the last 100 years or so.

Do you think they were just playing fast because they could only get 3 minutes on a side, or do you think we've all really slowed down? It's an interesting question. I know that some other styles of music were really affected by the recording lengths of 78s and 45s, perhaps honkyoku was as well?

e

Justin wrote:

Also, the difference of pitch is quite broad. It has been noticed that in Japan there is generally more tolerance for variable pitch, i.e. non-exact pitch. but if you listen to a lot of gramophone records, you may notice that in those earlier days of recording, it was not only Japan but also the Western world which had more tolerance. By today's standards, a great many classical musicians on old gramophone records play out of tune. Both their pitch and their timing are generally much less accurate, or less exact, than modern recordings.

I mentioned this a long while ago on the old shakuhachi mailing list, and I mentioned a friend of mine who feels strongly that generally far more of those gramophone recordings are "musical" than are modern classical recordings. This may seem a little paradoxical, and on the mailing list it seemed everyone thought this was madness! But, he assures me that much of the music which is out of time and out of pitch (on those gramophone records) is more musical than most of the perfect timing perfect pitch, excellant technique ... of the highly trained modern musicians. Not BECAUSE it is out of tune and time. But because of a musical quality which is more often present in those earlier performances.

In light of the present discussion, I think this may make sense.

On another note, we talked much about vintage shakuhachi in this thread, and much about pitch. But I think pitch is not the most relevant thing for vintage shakuhachi. Since most players now need to play using a certain pitch standard, the pitch of vintage shakuhachi contradicts that. But on the other hand there is the tone colour. So I would like to say something specific about the tone colour:

In my experience, modern shakuhachi are generally louder, and the notes are more stable. That is, they play easily and have a wide limit. That contrasts with vintage shakuhachi which seem generally more difficult to play, having more instabilities or a narrower "sweet spot". I would love to hear people's views about this. I would love to hear what you all feel are the pros and cons of each side, and how you all see this.

/

First, regarding relative difficulty of different kinds of flutes I think it's only a matter of what you practice, work on and get used to. The type of flute you play most often will seem easy and the "other" will seem difficult. Another factor is your own physicality. For me it's easier playing long flutes with big holes because I am tall and have big fingers. People who are used to vintage or jinashi find them easier than modern and vice versa.

About the old recordings, definitely there is something poignant about vintage classical recordings which is lacking nowadays. People play with too much bravado now, they are afraid to show vulnerability. That's a generalization but that's what I hear most of the time.

Kiku Day wrote:

Oh, I forgot.... so now editing. The author, shakuhachi maker and player Toya Deiko has writen several books and some articles in Sankyoku journal about how bad the tuning of the modern shakuhachi were to honkyoku playing. Lots of different opinions exists.... c'est la vie! )

Anything published in English? I'd like to read that.

I'm finding this post really very interesting and relative to some things I have been thinking about lately. In playing nothing but Myoan flutes and music for awhile, sometimes I have wondered about the tuning and is there a purpose, or method to it. It seems that most all Myoan flute are not pitched to western standards, but are quite often in tune (sound right) with each other . That tuning seems to give it the proper (to me) sound, I also sometimes wonder if they are tuned that way for the meri notes and the lack(?) of half hole-ing. I've tried to play the same song on a pretty well pitched Ji-ari flute, and it didn't sound right, there was something wrong going on to my ears, maybe I'm just used to chi being off etc., but it didn't sound right, the meri notes sounded off as well. So, are these pitched this way for a reason and us westerners are just not getting it? I've also noticed or I think I did, that the hole spacing on Myoan flutes are very much the same for each one, is this a stranded or a fluke? My teacher plays an older flute, about 50 or so years old made by a monk and mine is newer, the hole spacing are the same and they sound pretty right together. I hope all this is relative to this thread.

jeff jones wrote:

I'm finding this post really very interesting and relative to some things I have been thinking about lately. In playing nothing but Myoan flutes and music for awhile, sometimes I have wondered about the tuning and is there a purpose, or method to it.

There certainly was/is. That was the chosen tuning. And there were shakuhachi making formulae used. There are large variations when you look at Edo shakuhachi, which by the way would be very interesting to look into. It could be great to do a research project to see whether there are tuning differences between different parts of Japan. It is clear that the type of shakuhachi made are quite different. But I have never heard if there are local differences or preferrences in tunings.

jeff jones wrote:

It seems that most all Myoan flute are not pitched to western standards, but are quite often in tune (sound right) with each other .

As long as you use more or less the same length flutes build more or less the same way, you can play pretty well in tune with your teacher as long as you are all the time focused on the notes produced and tune to each other.

jeff jones wrote:

That tuning seems to give it the proper (to me) sound,

Once you get used to a new tuning it can sound good even if it sounded horrible when you first encountered it. Once I got used to the gamelan tuning or the Thai ensemble's tuning or the Myoan way of playing, I began to long for it. I began enjoying it. It is good one can get used to different tuning methods as there really are many in the world. If we keep ourselves closed to only one tuning system, we will miss out a lot. You probably had to get used to the Myoan tuning to some degree when you encountered Myoan playing. Some people suffer more than others. For example if you have been a musician and are used to one tuning, it can be difficult to be open to another system.

jeff jones wrote:

I also sometimes wonder if they are tuned that way for the meri notes and the lack(?) of half hole-ing. I've tried to play the same song on a pretty well pitched Ji-ari flute, and it didn't sound right, there was something wrong going on to my ears, maybe I'm just used to chi being off etc., but it didn't sound right, the meri notes sounded off as well. So, are these pitched this way for a reason and us westerners are just not getting it?

Since you mention changing to jinuri flutes, I'd take you play jinashi flutes. One big difference between jinashi and jinuri flutes is the production of meri notes. Jinashi flutes usually bends much easier down into meri and can go flatter. Dr Simura Satosi has described it in his book 'Kokan shakuhachi no gakkigaku'. He also shows that difference in charts. So, especially if you use the meri technique only bending down, the jinuri flutes will not get as far down as jinashi and the meri notes will be too sharp. That is why jinashi players and jinuri players do use slightly different fingering techniques as well as a different breathing technique. So, yes you are right here, but I am not so sure whether that is the reason for the different tuning of the kari notes. Tsu is for example often more flat than on modern flutes. That shouldn't be necessary if you can bend easier down.

jeff jones wrote:

I've also noticed or I think I did, that the hole spacing on Myoan flutes are very much the same for each one, is this a stranded or a fluke? My teacher plays an older flute, about 50 or so years old made by a monk and mine is newer, the hole spacing are the same and they sound pretty right together. I hope all this is relative to this thread.

Probably your teacher uses Myoan flutes where the same technique has been used when making them. Old flutes often uses the kuhan-wari methods. Dividing the tube with 9.5. Later to-wari or division by 10 became more popular. Then later on individual makers seem to find their own methods to overcome the tuning difficulties.

Mujitsu wrote:

Very interesting Jeff. For me, this also brings up the issue of when it is ok for a maker to re-tune or "fix" a vintage shakuhachi. I can see this practice as simultaneously practical and naive. This stuff is never easy!

No, not an easy question at all. The Japanese researchers were really hardcore about never repair or change the tuning of an old flute. I can understand why they say that. We still know so little about tuning and how the music was played. And if the flutes disappear in the original form (they are our only evidence of a different tuning)... well we will never know. On the other hand, many cannot play flutes with an old tuning and if you have one.... you'd like to play it.

madoherty wrote:

OK. Where is the line between obvious mistake and different tuning?  I have a myoan (assumedly) whose chi is just about a half-step sharp.  Mistake?  Are there guidelines , in cents, to the tuning?

Sharp chi is so common it must be considered normal for old flutes. That's not a mistake. I'm talking something radical like ro is a half step flat of the rest of the holes.