World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat
You are not logged in.
I cured my first root end today and burned the poor little suckers with the torch. Anyone have some tips on how to cure the root end without crisping the tips ;-)...? Should I let that end, maybe last two nodes, dry naturally? BTW I gave it a leopard theme, will post pics when finished. TIA.
Offline
Hmm been thinking, maybe an aluminum foil wrap around the root ends would prevent the open flame from charring the tips while still dehydrating the stalk...
Offline
I haven't used propane but I think you simply got too hot, too close. I think you should heat it until it starts to sweat, then polish, wipe it. What happened to the rest of the culm ?
Kel
Offline
The rest of it went great, the Bamboo had five or so stages as far as I could tell: 1. Initial bubbling which I wiped down the stalk, 2. Loss of bright green color with fade to a mossy green (less moisture released), 3. A very quick jump from mossy green to straw brown (almost like a mirage in the way it appears), 4. Browning without charring (which allowed for design), and 5. Charring, where the surface becomes rough and carbon starts forming at a high rate.
The roots had one stage, 1. Ohh crap... I burned them ;-)... so I charred the rest for unifomity.
There is a chance that the carbon could be taken off with sanding and still look OK, but I'd rather do it right (if there is such a thing) the first time.
Has anyone ever tried using a heat gun? The temp is about 40% that of propane (1500 deg F opposed to around 3800 deg F).
This is what I used:
Here is a heat gun:
Offline
In images I've seen of the process done in Japan by Perry Yung, a very wet rag was used to repeatedly dampen the culm at the heating point during the process.
eB
Offline
I suggest you do a bit of practice on some fresh culms not intended for flutes. I'm sure you will get good results in no time. The colour is in the skin and you have most likely destroyed it in your burning. Shouldn't have any effect on the sound though, so why not progress that culm into a flute anyway, and being at the root end you won't be handling it while playing.
Kel
Offline
This piece will definately become a flute, a little charcoal never hurt anything ;-). . . Beauty is definately in the eye of the beholder. The skin color came out OK IMHO, I'll post pics tonight to clear up any confusion on what I'm trying to get across.
Thanks.
Offline
I like your tinfoil idea, John. The abura-nuki process (hope I spelled that right -- the oiling & drying process) as it was shown to me involves lots of wiping and watching (in, out, in, out) since the color can change very very quickly, as Ed and others have mentioned. Maybe leave a little extra length on the root outgrowths before burning so when you trim and refine them later, the worst of the burned parts will likely be snipped and filed off.
Here are the same culms of bamboo, changing over a short period of time (click for bigger versions)...
In-the-ground: Freshly-cut: Abura-nuki:
Post-abura-nuki: Post-sun-tanning:
The sun tanning step above was approximately two weeks hanging outside in the December (Tokyo) sun. There must be a good Japanese word for tanning one's bamboo...
The shot with Okuda-san shows the transition from dark- to pale-green in mid-culm. I'm fascinated by the color changes and what must be going on inside the bamboo as that happens. Beyond the cosmetic appearance, there are bound to be molecular and structural changes in those long fibres. Bamboo is cool stuff.
-Darren.
Offline
If you do it with propane you can watch it dance like a mirage, maybe I'll make a quick video if anyone is intersted is seeing.
Here's the pics, mind you this is the first time I've ever done this ;-) :
Offline
Some Bamboo links:
http://www.inbar.int/publication/txt/IN … r_No49.htm
http://www-users.rwth-aachen.de/Christo … asics.html
http://www.americanbamboo.org/FAQ.html
Q. How do I work with bamboo in crafts?
Nancy Bess, Arts & Crafts Coordinator, provided this answer. “I am a basket maker and use a little bamboo in my work; however, I have watched lots of Japanese craftspeople at work, so I’ll share what I have learned. Also, there is a new book that is out now from Carol Stangler. Called The Craft and Art of Bamboo (Lark Books, ISBN: 1579901913), it covers lots of the questions having to do with tools and procedures. I know she interviewed the Lingens who are fence builders.
I use a paint stripping gun to bend bamboo. The pieces I use in the garden are about 3/4” wide and quite stiff. I pass the gun back and forth (it will scorch if you hold it in one place) over a four to five inch area -- you can actually feel the cell structure break down -- practice so you can control how much and how sharp the angle is. Where it cools down is where it stays. If you try bending after a long period of soaking, then where it dries is where it stays. Lots of craftspeople who make a product, make a jig (headless nails into plywood works) into which they can drop the hot (or wet) bamboo. This way they can produce identical pieces...if they want.
Many Japanese craftspeople use a heat source (boiling bath for some, gas oven for others, hibachi for many) to help remove the oil that is in bamboo. They roll the bamboo over (or in) the heat source and continually wipe the surface with a clean rag, much like stripping furniture. The bamboo must move continually or splotching occurs. Oil is removed to make the bamboo less inviting to insects, to harden it and stabilize the color. Air dry after - bamboo is a plant after all and loves to get mildew, etc.
Most craftspeople harvest bamboo when it is between two and five years old. The tissue is too soft before two years and it starts to deteriorate after five (some books say seven). Some craftspeople (especially for fences, work baskets, etc.) use bamboo green. For high quality products, the bamboo is aged. Dried in the sun, stored, oil removed, air dried.”
http://www.greenyarn.com/charcoal.htm
Offline
Darren...
I was looking at those photos last week, they're great. So, when you go to Japan with Alcvin, you guys tend to go for bigger diameter flutes, it looks like. All of your culms look pretty big.
How long do you have to wait to get the culms back from Japan? I assume you don't stay the whole 2 weeks, but maybe I'm wrong.
-Eddie
Offline
Hey Eddie. Thanks for the complement. Re/ sizes... We took what the grove offered us. Can't speak for the others but I came back with a handful of diameters & lengths, maybe toward the medium-large end of the spectrum. But probably nothing longer than 3.2 in finished state.
We did actually hang around for a couple of weeks while the bamboo got its tan. After burning, we went up and down Japan soaking up as much experience as our kind hosts, sore feet, and sore knees (from zazen) could tolerate.
-Darren.
Offline
Hi all, Great photos! A picture says a thousand words, or, better yet speaks another language
johnstrr wrote:
For high quality products, the bamboo is aged. Dried in the sun, stored, oil removed, air dried.”
This is pretty much how bamboo for shakuhachi is processed. I'm just starting to make flutes from pieces I harvest three years ago in Kyushu and outside of Tokyo.
Here are some pics:
This photo was taken in Januray 2005. It shows a piece that was just harvested that morning. Aburanuki was performed immediately so that I could get it into the sun the next day.
As Edo san previously wrote, I do use a wet rag after wiping the oils to keep the skin from burning. You can see that it turns pale green once it's sweated. That's when I know to move on to the next section. After a few hours of sweating the boo-ty (ouch) we finished off the evening with toriniku (chicken meat) on the hibatchi.
Someone previously asked how to heat the boo? Here's what I do in my NYC studio. Space is limited so I can't build a bonfire like the one in Darren's photos
I make a cone out of aluminum foil and place it over a very low flame. The radiant heat works really well, if not better than the hibatchi. I hold it about 2" above the opening and wipe as it sweats. I also bend bamboo this way since it can isolate and heat one spot easily.
Smell the boo! Perry
Offline
Thanx Perry, I dont have the patience to wait a few years to begin tinkering so I'm kinda flying by the seat of my pants and making it happen right now... the flutes I'm making at this point are all for me and really they are all just practice so that one day in the future when I find the perfect piece I will be able to approach it with more confidence.
So do you use the wet rag to spread the natural bamboo oil as well as to moisten the skin, or is it two separate rags... I would have thought the water on the rag would interfere with spreading the oil, since the two don't mix well. I decided on wearing a work glove covered in an old sock turned inside out for mine. Anyways a pic is worth a 1000, will do...
I like your stove set up, necessity is the mother... for sure ;-). I don't have a gas range, but the tinfoil diffuser is interesting. I'm pretty sure that there are different tips for my propane torch that will spread the flame out so it doesn't produce such a concentrated hotspot... hmm I guess I'll look right now...
Well here we go:
The combination of the flame spreader and my tinfoil idea just might work... I'll take pics tonight as a reference to future flute fiddlers (ahh an accidental alliteration) ;-) and as a clarification to my disjointed writing.
Offline
Ok:
1. Before:
2. Tin Foil Wrap:
3. Begining to bubble:
4. Wiping it down:
5. Three stages:
6. Working my way down:
7. Finished:
8. Root End close up:
And A Bamboo grove in East Texas:
Offline
Yungflutes wrote:
I also bend bamboo this way since it can isolate and heat one spot easily.
Hi Folks,
Is it possible to bend or straighten bamboo once it is cured and dried?
Thanks
Last edited by Thomas (2006-04-21 21:04:37)
Offline
Thomas wrote:
Yungflutes wrote:
I also bend bamboo this way since it can isolate and heat one spot easily.
Hi Folks,
Is it possible to bend or straighten bamboo once it is cured and dried?
Thanks
Hi Thomas,
The bamboo is usually bent after it is cured.
There are numberous ways to do it. I learned it one way from Kinya but found a better way for myself in NYC since I don't have the same equipment that Kinya has in Japan.
I make a cone from aluminum foil and place it over a tiny flame on my stove. See the photo on a previous entry on this thread. The radiant heat that emits from the top is quite hot. I hold the point that needs bending about 2" from the opening. It's held in place for about 20 seconds in one spot and then rotated to the opposite side and held for another 20 secs. I wipe the area with a wet towel to keep the skin from scorching. After two full rotations with even heat on all sides (about 2 minutes), I place the bamboo in my homemade bending jig. It bends quite easily.
You are most welcomed to come by my place the next time I bend boo to take a look.
All the best,
Perry
Offline
johnstrr wrote:
So do you use the wet rag to spread the natural bamboo oil as well as to moisten the skin, or is it two separate rags... I would have thought the water on the rag would interfere with spreading the oil, since the two don't mix well. I decided on wearing a work glove covered in an old sock turned inside out for mine.
As John asked, I too was wondering Perry, if you wipe down with a dry cloth first, followed by the wet cloth?
Thanks!
Offline
I think that the wet cloth, as Perry stated, is just to keep the boo skin from scorching. Bear in mind that the bamboo is already cured. That indicates that heating the bamboo to raise the oil has already taken place quite some time ago. That is if proper procedures have been followed. This procedure is for bending the bamboo. Right Perry?????
Offline
edosan wrote:
In images I've seen of the process done in Japan by Perry Yung, a very wet rag was used to repeatedly dampen the culm at the heating point during the process.
eB
This is what I was referring to about the wet rag Perry uses in curing the bamboo, and what John was asking about also, I believe.
Offline
Re: wet/dry rags... another data point, from a beginner but keen observer and participant in some burning and bending sessions with experienced makers...
1. Abura-nuki... We used strictly dry rags for wiping when burning. (Unless I missed the wet one being passed around somewhere, but I don't think so.) This was immediately after harvest in late November, so the cut culms would have had significant water still present, so maybe that's why additional water wasn't introduced. Not sure. Also, this was over a bonfire, so maybe the heat is less intense than Perry's method.
2. Bending... Lots of water (rags, spritzing, and dunking) was used during bending. This was after the bamboo had rested for 6 months or years or more. This was done over a propane or similar portable stove flame.
-Darren.
Offline
waryr wrote:
I think that the wet cloth, as Perry stated, is just to keep the boo skin from scorching. Bear in mind that the bamboo is already cured. That indicates that heating the bamboo to raise the oil has already taken place quite some time ago. That is if proper procedures have been followed. This procedure is for bending the bamboo. Right Perry?????
Hi all, Sorry for the slow reply. Sasa's being potty trained and Jet's teething these days so my hands are quite full:)
For aburanuki, the wet rag is used first mostly as a preventative measure against unintentional browning. The wet surface dries rather quickly and is followed by the oils seconds later, which is wiped off by a second dry cloth. This is how it was shown to me. I don't know if the wet rag is actually neccessary for aburanuki. Maybe the Madake bamboo skin likes the wet rag first. maybe Kinya just wants to spread clean oils when it's sweated. Oils mixed with dirt on the bamboo skin can end up gummier and harder to wipe off. I'll try it without the wet step next time to see if there's any difference in the skin texture.
However, for bending, the wet rag is very important since the heat is left on one spot for a much longer duration.
Derek ask about a bending jig a while back but I didn't have a chance to post a photo. Here is my jig. It's a simple one that will do the trick for most bends. It would not work for a curvey piece with multiple bends.
All the best,
Perry
Offline
Hi Perry,
Thanks for posting the pic of the bending jig. It makes things much clearer. With your instructions, I was able to successfully bend a piece of bamboo by heating it on my stovetop and then wedging it under the sink! (I love these improvised techniques of the NYC apartment/workshop). The skin got a little browner, but no burning. It was a good experiment.
Thanks for your advice,
Tom
Offline
dstone wrote:
Re: wet/dry rags... another data point, from a beginner but keen observer and participant in some burning and bending sessions with experienced makers...
1. Abura-nuki... We used strictly dry rags for wiping when burning. (Unless I missed the wet one being passed around somewhere, but I don't think so.) This was immediately after harvest in late November, so the cut culms would have had significant water still present, so maybe that's why additional water wasn't introduced. Not sure. Also, this was over a bonfire, so maybe the heat is less intense than Perry's method.-Darren.
Good point Darren, about the fresh cut bamboo having lots of moisture still in it-maybe the wet rag wouldn't be much use there. But I can see if you are curing older cut bamboo, it might be a logical step to introduce some moisture first with the wet rag. I'll try that on some older culms I have when I cure them and see how it works. Probably couldn't hurt, anyway.
Also a good point about the charcoal fire maybe being a cooler fire than the propane flame-might very well make a difference too.
Thanks for your reply too, Perry. It does seem that you indeed have your work cut out for you with Sasa and Jet at the moment! Good luck with them, and enjoy parenthood while you can, and you're young and strong!
Last edited by bluespiderweb (2006-04-26 00:27:35)
Offline
Man... I kinda feel stupid, I check the forum everyday for Blue Dots indicating new posts, well... they only work if you make sure you're logged in ;-).
Thanks for the replies everyone, I understand the wet/dry rag protocol now :-)... looks like my weekend projects are building a bending jig and a finishing work box (the kind with Vs cut in the sides to lay the flute in)... ohh and then there those pesky real chores like re-roofing my deck and finishing the painting in my soon-to-be daughters room... gotta have priorities!
Offline