Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

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#1 2008-08-02 06:32:04

No-sword
Member
From: Kanagawa
Registered: 2008-07-09
Posts: 115
Website

Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I'm curious to hear what it's like for people who can't read Japanese (or couldn't at first) to read shakuhachi notation.

For me, it's like a page full of "Do.. do.. re.. mi.... do..." with occasional notes saying "shake" or "open/close 4". What I mean is that everything pops out at me as letters/words/numbers, as clear as if it were written in English. Of course I don't know how anything will sound--what's going to be meri'd by default, etc.--and I certainly won't be able to play it... but I can read what's on the page.

What is it like if you can't read it beforehand? Did you learn to read it as Japanese "words", or as a page of pure symbols (like Western staff notation)? Is it tough reading notation in handwriting you aren't familiar with? If you get notation from your teacher, do they explain new things on it to you or do you just take notes and figure it out from their playing? Do you write out notation for yourself?


Matt / no-sword.jp

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#2 2008-08-02 07:37:27

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Hi,

I can't really read Japanese (I can a little now, but when I started shakuhachi I couldn't at all).
To me the kana (kinko notation in handwritten katakana) was just symbols representing finger
positions. I've never been a good sight reader of western notation, so when I started playing the
shakuhachi that was one skill I wanted to try to hone. After a time the symbols became sort of
automatic instructions for my "hand-eye" coordination mechanism. This process has gotten better
with time.

Hand written notation poses a challenge. The main symbols are usually no problem but the meri
and chu-meri marks are sometimes hard to read (and inconsistent). The timing ticks sometimes
get mashed together or obscured in one way or another. The special instructions (like suri-age
marks) can also be a little small and obscured. BTW I find that the notation written by Yamaguchi
Goro is the hardest to read. It is very pretty (from a Sho-do point of view) but it is often hard
to see.

Most of the time I can sight-read kinko notation pretty well now.


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

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#3 2008-08-02 11:14:55

nomaD43
Member
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 2006-07-22
Posts: 96

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Matt,
Like Michael I can't read Japanese. I had never had any interest in music or playing any instrument, so I can't read western notation either. When I was first introduced to Shakuhachi I had to learn the notation. Reading the music is a matter of memorizing what I had been told each of the 'symbols' meant. I had studied with my teacher for about a year or two before we both moved away from each other, now I am nowhere near a teacher and have been without lessons for far too many years. So trying to remember what I had been taught is getting increasingly difficult and more and more of those side notes have been lost in the mists of time.
I have come across several pieces that have been either hand written or computer generated and have no idea how to read the notations. These days I have no memory of how to play the majority of the pieces that I had once learned to play along with my teacher. Of course with no musical training, no sense of musical timing, no rhythm, and no teacher it is nearly impossible to play shakuhachi.
My linguistic skills (lack of) also contribute to my inability to retain the meaning of each kana makes it even harder to retain the meaning of the characters.
Damon

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#4 2008-08-02 13:23:39

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I think about 3~6 months of studying Japanese helps you acquire enough reading skill to prevent the symbols from becoming an obstacle to playing the music.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#5 2008-08-02 13:54:47

KenC
Member
From: Western Massachusetts
Registered: 2006-01-05
Posts: 75

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I'm also in that group that can not read either Japanese or western notation.  It hasn't been a barrier so far, but i'm fortunate to have a teacher that does read japanese.  We play Tozan Sankyoku, and both Tozan and Kinko Honkyoku and my music scores have plenty of notes for tempo, time changes, meri's, kari's.  I'd love to learn to speak some but wonder how i could retain with such a low level of imersion. ie onnly speaking it with my teacher once a week.

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#6 2008-08-02 18:36:24

No-sword
Member
From: Kanagawa
Registered: 2008-07-09
Posts: 115
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Thanks for some interesting replies so far!

Chikuzen, have you ever had any students who learnt just enough Japanese to read the notation (I guess including sounding out performance notes written in kana, etc.), and then stopped? How did that work out for them? Do you structure lessons differently for students who can't read any Japanese at all, allowing extra time to explain how the notation works or something like that? If you write notation for people is your writing style affected by the reading comprehension level of the person it is for? It would be great to get a teacher's perspective on all this too.


Matt / no-sword.jp

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#7 2008-08-04 04:27:30

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Hi Matt,

When I first came to Japan I'd had a couple months of learning katakana and hiragana so when I started shakuhachi that may have been somewhat helpful in learning the symbols as the Kinko notation is kind of a modified katakana script but I think I really learned the symbols simply by associating them with the sounds they represent, combining that with the physical act of making the fingerings.  The main symbols in the Kinko shakuhachi notation are only a representation of how many holes are covered or open (partly or completely) and though the notation initially looks difficult there aren't that many different symbols (and even better for us shakuhachi players, there are only five holes to worry about; I can't imagine playing a saxophone!) - the katakana for ro, tsu, re, chi, hi, ri, hi, and u, in both a lower octive (otsu) and a higher octave (kan), along with the adjacent symbols for meris and karis, which one learns a little bit later on.  Of course there are things that are not always written in the music, and after a few months of basic training my sensei would begin to write those unwritten details -- such as suriage or ori -- in on my pieces of music and after I had figured those out I would just copy his additions from his notation.  As for memorizing the names of the symbols, before playing each piece, members of our shakuhachi group would sing the notes of each piece along with the sensei while we were tapping out the rhythm (the upbeats and downbeats) on our knees, starting out with quite simple pieces and gradually working up to honkyoku and gaikyoku.  My teacher did the same thing over the years with about six of us foreigners who didn't speak or read any or much Japanese in the beginning and we integrated the learning of the tablature along with our playing so there was no need for the "extra time" that you mentioned; now I use the same method with my own students. Japanese students don't automatically know how the notation works either so I think it is more of a matter of individual propensity for learning something new rather than a matter of learning a language.  My written Japanese skills are pretty underdeveloped for someone who has lived twenty years in Japan so if I figure that if I can learn a few symbols in order to play Japanese music, anybody can, and probably faster than I did.  I used to play trumpet and horn years ago in jr. high and high bands and at that time read western notation but oddly enough I still haven't managed to put in the effort to read standard notation with any degree of proficiency on shakuhachi; aesthetically I think I prefer the Japanese script.  I did learn to play a bit of tin whistle a few years ago using standard notation, so I think it is still  theoretically possible for me at my relatively advanced age to learn to play shakuhachi from western notation; meanwhile I've still got enough to do just getting the details down on honkyoku and gaikyoku pieces as well as learning new ones so maybe I'll never get around to it, though there are some really nice modern pieces to play out there if one does read standard Western notation...

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#8 2008-08-04 09:24:15

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I think how and what you are taught at the beginning will dictate how easy or difficult it is to adjust to the shakuhachi notation system.  I began on very simple pieces (dohyo) that demanded first being able to read otsu kari notes, then added the same notes in the kan register.  After that, I learned  meri notes through the national anthem of Japan, Kimigayo.
After learning 5 or 6 short pieces, the basic notes were established.  I found little problem reading and associating the symbols to their respective notes.
As Dan suggests, one very good technique to aid the learning process at the beginning is to sing the piece note for note while keeping time on your knees with a slap of your hand.  I alternate playing a piece together with the student and singing the notes while the student plays.  Hearing the pitch and the name of the note really helps the learning process.
My teacher had the foresight to teach me both kinko and tozan notation as we play pieces written in both styles.  I've been playing the sax and flute for years and began with bagpipes, so I also read western notation, though I'm pretty limited to doing that with a 1.8 D flute for now.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#9 2008-08-04 10:36:00

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Maybe we learned from the same dohyo book.  I also started with the otsu notes, then kan, then meri, and then the first song was Kimigayo.   Did you learn from that book with the green cover?  Do you still play bagpipes?  Some years ago I heard the sound of bagpipes by the Kamo river in north Kyoto and followed the sound up to find a bagpiper in full regalia piping away on the riverside.  I played my shakuhachi along with his pipes but the drone of the bagpipes pretty well drowned out the sound of the shakuhachi.  I love that bagpipe sound.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-08-04 10:36:56)

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#10 2008-08-04 11:20:56

Nyogetsu
Kyu Dan Dai Shihan
From: NYC
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 259
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I also used the same little Kinko-ryu "green" book, and have been teaching beginners from it (now over 1,000) for the past 36 years !

Last edited by Nyogetsu (2008-08-04 11:21:26)


The magic's in the music and the music's in me...
"Do you believe in Magic"- The Lovin' Spoonful

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#11 2008-08-04 11:57:56

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Nyogetsu wrote:

I also used the same little Kinko-ryu "green" book, and have been teaching beginners from it (now over 1,000) for the past 36 years !

Hello Nyogetsu,
     Greetings. I have great respect for your playing.
      Is this Kinko-ryu "green" book something I cans get my mitts on?
                                               Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#12 2008-08-04 13:21:54

Nyogetsu
Kyu Dan Dai Shihan
From: NYC
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 259
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the kind words.
Contact me off line (or anyone else who would like a copy. This is because of copyright laws, etc.), and I will tell you how to get a copy for free <nyogetsu@gmail.com>

I don't know if it is even being published anymore!


The magic's in the music and the music's in me...
"Do you believe in Magic"- The Lovin' Spoonful

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#13 2008-08-04 14:37:25

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Nyogetsu wrote:

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the kind words.
Contact me off line (or anyone else who would like a copy. This is because of copyright laws, etc.), and I will tell you how to get a copy for free <nyogetsu@gmail.com>

I don't know if it is even being published anymore!

Jim,

It used to be sold by Mejiro (I bought one from them about 4 years ago). I also initially learned from this
book and the used copy that my teacher gave me (in 1993) had gotten pretty beat up. When I was in Japan in
2004 I got another copy at Mejiro (BTW It was never listed on their web site only in their printed
catalog as I recall). You might try contacting them. Someone on the list should be able to translate
the title and author for you (I don't have it here at the moment but I recall that it was "Teach Yourself
Shakuhachi" or something close to that).


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

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#14 2008-08-04 17:13:00

No-sword
Member
From: Kanagawa
Registered: 2008-07-09
Posts: 115
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Ha, I think I am using the book you guys are talking about, too. It's called 琴古流尺八独習 (Kinko-ryū Shakuhachi Dokushū, "Studying Kinko-Ryu Shakuhachi on Your Own", roughly) and is by KUSANO Reifū (草野鈴風). The cover is a black-on-green drawing of a coastal landscape. I just found it in the current English Mejiro catalog as B0096.

(Not to be confused with Shakuhachi Dokushū by ISHIDAKA Kinpū, I guess.)

Thanks for the ongoing responses, folks.


Matt / no-sword.jp

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#15 2008-08-13 06:21:11

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Read your remarks with interest, and have a curious question to put. But first maybe I should remark, that I'm an easy first site reader of western notation. I got the kinko-characters explained by my teacher, just connected the character to the sound/fingering and played (big_smile after I learned how to get a sound). If the technique of the piece is not to difficult, I now can play also the Japanese notation rather fluidly at first site. Actually I never gave it much thought, if I think hard I can put the Japanese names on them, but mostly I'm not thinking in names at all or just think about the signs with the wester notation names. As far as I know it didn't hinder me playing, and  it also makes me no difference to play from western or Japanese notation. But I always like to learn better, so can anyone please explaine me the importance of singing/saying the notes first........? What will my playing gain by doing so (except learning the Japanese names more fluid)?


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#16 2008-08-13 09:16:15

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

While singing the notes it's traditional Japanese practice to keep time with your hands alternately hitting your knees on the omote (front) and ura (back) beats (symbolized by the black dots next to the kana symbols in the Kinko notation); it's just a way of getting the timing of the pieces down before playing them.  It can be helpful as the timing can get start to get tricky once you start making your way through that little green book, especially when you get to the gaikyoku pieces.  And it will also help in memorizing the names of the notes, as you mentioned.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-08-13 09:26:24)

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#17 2008-08-13 09:33:59

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Dun Romin wrote:

can anyone please explaine me the importance of singing/saying the notes first........? What will my playing gain by doing so (except learning the Japanese names more fluid)?

Reading music means being able to sing the music from what's written. If you can't translate the characters on the page into sounds in your head before you play them, playing from a score is like reading English phonetically and having it add up to decipherable words and sentences only after you've spoken them.

It doesn't matter if you sing the music on the page with the note names or DO-RE-MI or nonsense syllables, as long as you're getting the pitches and the rhythm right -- but singing the actual note names is probably the simplest way to do it, and it develops facility with the note-name vocabulary that enables you to talk to your teacher and other players about technique.

It also doesn't matter whether or not you have what's called a "good voice."

Singing is also the best way to get the rhythm. Your teacher will show you how to do the steady right/left clapping that enables the sung rhythms to fall into place.

There are people who play music totally by ear, without notation. That's great, no problem. But among musicians who use notation, I don't know any really good ones who can't sing from their notation. Singing is the heart of music.

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#18 2008-08-13 09:58:12

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

nyokai wrote:

Reading music means being able to sing the music from what's written.

Is this just a Japanese thing? I know lots of musicians that can't sight-sing yet they can read music. Most pros I've known can sight sing, knowing how the intervals sound in their head, but saying that only sight-singing is reading music means that most amatuer bands aren't reading music while there sitting there playing the notes they see represented on the music sheet in front of them. Maybe I'm just envious because I can't sight-sing, and I know it's a good thing to be able to do, but I thought I could read western notation (not on shakuhachi though). I also think it matters some how good your voice is, because even if you can hear the intervals in your head it takes some experience to sing them. I'm sure any advanced instrumental student has experienced this if they didn't have teachers who got them singing notes right away. I think a lot of advanced musicians/singers have forgotten that voice is an instrument too, and that just because you hear something in your head doesn't mean you can sing it. It takes some amount of skill to match pitches singing, even if it is elementary.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#19 2008-08-13 11:57:56

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I have noticed that it is easier to make a student understand the pitch aimed at (or rather the relative pitch - the interval is the point here) when singing with them rather than making them play.

Being able to sing a piece really helps internalising the piece - embody it, so to speak. But that is certainly no different than when learning a piece from Western notation. I will do it with new pieces to play on flute and piano too.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#20 2008-08-13 12:08:29

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

That I can confirm, Radi0gnome; at my sightsinginglessons I heard a lot of instrumentalists getting of pitch because their voices didn't do what they wanted, and they heard that themselves allright. Besides that also for us singers sightsinging was considered a mere technical skill you needed for your exams. If I don't understand how the ritm is structured, I prefer counting to singing. Knowlegde of the scales/tonalities takes care of noticing it immediately when erring in the lecture at first sight. And once you're passed the first sight, you're musical memory takes over that job. But Nyokai, smile thanks for reminding me, also if I see more custom as use, I'm curious enough to retry this skil again and see if and how my playing improves. At least it will quicken the Japanese naming for a while.


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#21 2008-08-13 17:15:35

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Although I think that Shika no Tone is as difficult to sing as a Boulez score, you got some points there. Jumping happily into my personal ditch of intelectualizing and forgetting I'm of the old solfegeschool makes me red on the cheeks. I'll better keep my promise less halfheartedly so.
By the way, I think too, singing is good, only I never considered doing solfege as singing. You don't use your body and breath there as you do with singing, more like you do with talking. That's what I think is so great about shakuhachiplaying, it lets you use your body and breath like you are singing, and besides that the shakuhachi gives you more dept, different colours and sounds than your voice ever can. (smile I imagine voice-muraiki can be only done by heavy smokers.)


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#22 2008-08-13 21:31:01

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

Having played brass instruments years back with Western notation I think I agree with Nyokai that it's easier to learn the rhythm in the traditional Japanese way.  My teacher primarily stresses singing the gaikyoku before playing but when I attended yearly workshops in Bisei, Yokoyama Katsuya often got us to sing the honkyoku as well, for rhythm and pitch, and as Kiku mentioned, in order to internalize the music.  Yokoyama sensei emphasizes memorizing the honkyoku and singing the pieces is also one way to help accomplish that.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-08-13 21:32:28)

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#23 2008-08-14 02:06:58

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I had the good fortune to study jazz improvisation with Warne Marsh. He had his students sing a lot.  In the end it comes down to how much do you "own" what you are doing.  Sometimes while reading music playing saxophone I will read and play the correct note and it will surprise me because it was different than what I expected to hear. To sing a note you have to totally "own" it.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#24 2008-08-14 10:05:59

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

roll O, dear sirs, point taken. You've earned yourselves a good glass of wine. I'll take a glass too on your convincing good health and start practising.


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#25 2008-08-14 14:54:30

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Reading shakuhachi notation when you can't read Japanese

I think the value for the "singing" of the songs can easily and immediately be understood if you listen to a variety of chanting in Asia. Two things that were very prevalent throughout asia for hundreds of years are calligraphy and chanting. Studying/doing either one will help your shakuhachi playing immensely. There are many types of songs and chants: Shomyo, Wasan, Noh chanting, Shigin, Jiuta, Sokyoku,  kumiuta, Hauta, Ro Kyoku, Biwa music with voice, pilrims songs, songs sung at festivals, all the folk music: this bushi and that bushi, songs for rice planting, songs for hot springs, and on and on. Actually, if you just get a chance to hear older people in Japan singing you'll be shocked to hear how it reminds one of various types of chanting.

   However, the most immediate thing to do is to simply chant the shakuhachi songs you are learning, especially the honkyoku, and you'll see the results yourself. You'll be glad you did.

Last edited by chikuzen (2008-08-14 14:55:53)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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