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#1 2008-08-20 17:24:02

indigo
Member
From: Brooklyn, New York
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 52

east west

I am wondering if those of us born into  western culture can even begin to comprehend buddhist thought given the absolute dominance of Sigmund Freud and the model of nature we live with characterized by such scientists as Bohr and Rutherford?

ego

emptiness

nothingness

space

being

universe

time

sex

positive

negative etc.

All terms that in english have very strong connections to the above mentioned.

For me asking "What is Zen?" and the ensuing discussions generate a cloud of confusion in relation to my own cultural background.  Differentiating Buddhist terminology from "Freud's terminology" is extremely difficult.  My intuition tells me that there are profound differences.

Just wondering what you characters think since this is a world wide forum.

thank you

indigo

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#2 2008-08-21 05:54:49

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: east west

Hi Indigo
I'm surprised to hear that "jinashi" has a strong connection for you to Freud, Bore etc. smile The term "jinashi" has absolutely no connection to Buddhism - it's just a term used here in Japan to mean a shakuhachi with not much or no ji in it. (The term arose to differentiate those shakuhachi from the mainstream ones made by crafting the bore of shakuhachi to precise measurements using urushi technology).

As for the other terms, I would say that this does bring difficulties. If Westerners read a little about Buddhism, it is easy for them to think they understand, but actually do not understand at all. This is largely connected to the problem you have pointed out. Each specialist subject has a specialist vocabulary. And even words common to different specialities are used differently. This applies to terms used for example in art and biology or mechanics or whatever - the same words can have different specific meanings in different subjects.

So it is important to become familiar with the way the terms are bing used. That usually requires study over a period of time. Getting used to it.

In the Tibetan tradition, if you want to study a text, it is taught very slowly and thoroughly. Sometimes the teacher will literally give a commentary on (nearly) every word! in that case, you really get to know the exact meaning of each word, in the specific context. Because even the same word used in a different context can have a different meaning. For example, "dharma" has 10 meanings! And even between the different schools of Tibetan Buddhism, the same word has differences in meaning. So you really have to understand the individual text, and the context of when it was written, by whom, from what school and so on. All this understanding is passed on from teacher to student, and the system of receiving the knowledge is quite systematic, so it insures the correct understanding.

Well, generally most people don't have that much time to study the texts, but, actually it depends what you want anyway. If you want to be enlightened, you needn't do that sort of study. but if you are interested out of a philosophical interest, then that kind of study may be good. There are also detailed books available with commentaries.

If you want to become enlightened, the generally recommended way is to become the student of an enlightened master. In that case, it is generally recommended to do what the master says. That may be study. Often it is mind training. Mind training often does not require philosophical study. In the time of the Buddha, they had no texts, and did not even memorise all the philosophy which they do now in the monasteries. That came later when the monastic communities were formed after the Buddha's time. The Buddha's way was one of the forest meditator. The main activity was meditation. The history which the monastic system produced may tell you otherwise, but this is what the oldest sources reveal, and movements such as the Forest Monastery movement in Thailand encourage us to follow this more original way (it has survived quietly in the forests and mountains along side the monastic institutions all this time, luckily). Indeed, this was the way before the Buddha also, of the past Buddhas. The Pratyekkabuhhas for example. As Buddha said, "I follow the Ancient way".

However, a certain amount of study can do some good to help eliminate certain wrong views. These wrong views can be a kind of blockage at certain points for our practice, so that can be good if it can remove them. It can also help us from misunderstanding the teacher, and stop us from trying to fit what the teacher says into our false world-view. So especially some of the foundational teachings can be good to study. I would recommend studying texts actually written for Westerners, because they will be written with an understanding of which points the Westerner can get tripped up on. I could recommend any of Chogyam Trungpa's books. Also a great book on all the foundations is by Reginal Ray, called Indestructible Truth. If you want to understand also the advanced teachings which involve the fast path to full enlightenment, his second volume is Secret of the Vajra World. Some people hear might laugh at reading "fast path", but so let them laugh.
These books are especially good because they take you through the teachings in a broad and systematic way, allowing you to understand how everything fits in, and at the same time acknowledge that real Buddhism is practice.

http://www.amazon.com/Indestructible-Tr … amp;sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Vajra-Worl … amp;sr=8-3

Other than that, I recommend Adyashanti. If you are serious, you could go to whatever he has, such as a weekend or something like that:
http://www.adyashanti.org/

He also has excellant audio downloads available which you can buy and some for free:
http://www.adyashanti.org/cafedharma/in … rary_audio

Also if you look him up on youtube you can watch clips of him. I do not know of any greater teacher in native English. That is really genuine Buddhism. I think if you open to him, you will not worry any more about this question which you have asked now.

Best wishes and good luck!

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#3 2008-08-21 09:04:10

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: east west

At the risk of eliciting shrieks of 'blasphemy', and 'infidel', I would also
recommend reading and listening to Alan Watts, who's thoughts on Zen I've found to be very accessible
to my 'Western Mind' (whatever that is...).

Recordings of many of his lectures can be found here (as well as several other web locations):

     http://deoxy.org/watts.htm

A list of his books can be found at the end of this wiki:

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts

Finally, I point you to these, um, skits from 'South Park':

     http://souljerky.com/articles/south_par … _trey.html


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#4 2008-08-21 10:29:54

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: east west

Like shakuhachi, much of the confusion that crops up in the "Western Mind," if that is what we are really talking about, can be overcome by approaching Buddhism under the instruction of a teacher.  It can be difficult finding one that is worth their salt, but there are many options open to you.  You can choose to simply read books written by a teacher, if you think you cannot find one close enough for a personal relationship.

Perhaps the only thing that is really "western" about the whole issue is that folks think that they can approach something to which the are largely ignorant without the help of some instruction and direction.  I think this more of an issue of conceit than an issue of heritage.  Not all of us bought everything Frued was dishing out.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#5 2008-08-21 13:00:43

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: east west

Yeah, Freud really sucks, man.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2008-08-21 13:31:05

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: east west

Why not read what the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese read in the old days?

Why rely on some new age hippy type of books written by self-proclaimed enlightened or knowledgeable people?

The Zen masters of China, Korea and Japan left us with a bunch of books written and aimed at common folks so why not read them since they are mostly all available in English now.

The main philosophers and scholars like Laozi, Kungzi (Confucius), Mozi etc. are all translated and available in English as far as I know.

So this is what is pissing me off mostly. Most people will get attached to all those new age/ ex hippy Zen crapola teachers and believe each of their written or spoken words as if this is enlightenment itself. Its quite easy just read the classics for yourself just like anybody that could read in the old days did.

Not so hard to do but people don’t like to put any efforts in anything, they just want to see some smiling, loving all compassionate fake that will tell them that its all good and that everything is all ok and this will equate for them as seeing some enlightened person.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#7 2008-08-21 14:27:30

jdanza
Moderator
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2008-06-19
Posts: 85
Website

Re: east west

I'm not sure about that Gishin... The thing is that the writings of contemporary people are written from contemporary (personal) experience, and therefore can be more direct and easy to relate to. The ancient writings are very valuable and enriching, and I am an avid reader of them, but the fact is that you are reading someones translation of it, ie an interpretation, maybe by a "new age/ ex hippy Zen crapola" translator. The books that I love the most, I tend to buy entire libraries of translations, and I find it amazing how the meaning of a phrase sometimes may be translated in very different and sometimes contradictory ways. Anyway, is older necessarily better?.
It's not that I entirely disagree with you but I sense some anger that is maybe making your point of view a bit unbalanced.
Anyway, ultimately, books just won't do the job... they can feed the mind and open new doors of understanding but they can never provide the direct experience. As I get older I read less and less, and I blow more and more.
With respect...

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#8 2008-08-21 14:31:43

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: east west

Many thanks for the links Ed, really like Matt and Trey as "masters"!
One of the few books I've read on Zen was Alan Watts "translation" "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones". Nice stories for an Ex Hippy (Me - though I Still have the hair) - But then I'm not a "Zen Buddhist" either.


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#9 2008-08-21 14:49:52

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: east west

There are some sincere living monks & teachers

I'd agree; however, they are generally easy to spot, considering they should have some kind of lineage or ordination from the tradition in which they participate.

Yeah, Freud really sucks, man.

Sorry for the misspelling, but I prefer to refer to him as Frued (pronounced Frood).  He was an intensly intelligent man.  Much of what he "dicovered" led to a great deal of good science.  It is just a mistake to assume he was complete in his assessment on the psyche.

Sometimes a bamboo flute is just a bamboo flute.

Here is an article on finding "authentic" Buddhism that some may like.

http://www.acmuller.net/articles/critic … andzen.htm

Also this quote from Bhikkhu Sujato gets to the heart of things as well.

I started out this essay by criticizing ‘Pali fundamentalism’; but we must also beware of becoming ‘pre-sectarian’ fundamentalists! The teachings of the various schools are not just a sheer mass of error and meaningless corruption, any more than they are iron-clad formulations of ‘ultimate truth’. They are the answers given by teachers of old to the question: ‘What does Buddhism mean for us?’ Each succeeding generation must undertake the delicate task of hermeneutics, the re-acculturation of the Dhamma in time and place. And in our times, so different from those of any Buddhist era or culture of the past, we must find our own answers. Looked at from this perspective, the teachings of the schools offer us invaluable lessons, a wealth of precedent bequeathed us by our ancestors in faith.

I really think original texts and records from the Patriarchs are very fundemental.  They comprise the majority of what I read concerning Buddhism.  I think there is something to be said for getting back to the original texts, although trying to find "original" Buddhism seems to be a slippery slope.  And, reading these primary texts without some commentary, or at least some context, can lead folks further away.  Of course, there is no need to rely on others to establish this context.  We all have the capability to do the research.  Some fo us may not have the time.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#10 2008-08-21 14:50:46

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: east west

jdanza wrote:

I'm not sure about that Gishin... The thing is that the writings of contemporary people are written from contemporary (personal) experience, and therefore can be more direct and easy to relate to.

Anyway, is older necessarily better?.

Most contemporary people that wrote books DO lack substance and most of them basically have no tangible or legitimate training and based their writings on their own self assumptions outside of any deep knowledge of the original language in which the stuff they write about is written in. Also they lack a lot of cultural and historical background to be able to pass a deep and really unbiased judgement or evaluation of any writings.

I truly do not think that the old stuff is too hard. YES there is some stuff that is directly aimed for scholars BUT so many books written by Chinese, Korean and Japanese masters were directly aimed at common folks and even if they were written several hundreds of years ago are easy to read and understand in English PLUS it does not take a rocket scientist too see what was really culturally relevant at the time from what is not relevant today.

To answer to your question YES older is BETTER.

And why? Not because it is older in itself but actually because it was written as the basics. Why should we not study or apply the basics? Why should we not put any efforts like all the other students, priest, monks laymen etc before us did?

With just a bit of concentration and effort you will truly open the door and then see that it was not so hard and quite natural in the end. If we always go for the easy answer or easy path we are fooling ourselves in thinking that we truly know something etc. but in fact our knowledge is just based on prechewed bullshit.

True knowledge comes from self experience after studying the classics and then seeing for our own self what was of true value for your place time etc. Why let another fool choose what was of value for you?


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#11 2008-08-21 14:54:02

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: east west

edosan wrote:

Gishin wrote:

Why not read what the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese read in the old days?

Why rely on some new age hippy type of books written by self-proclaimed enlightened or knowledgeable people?

The Zen masters of China, Korea and Japan left us with a bunch of books written and aimed at common folks so why not read them since they are mostly all available in English now.

The main philosophers and scholars like Laozi, Kungzi (Confucius), Mozi etc. are all translated and available in English as far as I know.

So this is what is pissing me off mostly. Most people will get attached to all those new age/ ex hippy Zen crapola teachers and believe each of their written or spoken words as if this is enlightenment itself. Its quite easy just read the classics for yourself just like anybody that could read in the old days did.

Not so hard to do but people don’t like to put any efforts in anything, they just want to see some smiling, loving all compassionate fake that will tell them that its all good and that everything is all ok and this will equate for them as seeing some enlightened person.

Gishin: Why not put some of your much-propounded effort into not being angry.

Do you and us, both, a world of good.

[BTW: Have you ever even picked up one of Alan Watts' books, even to toss it in the trash?]

eB

I am not angry.  It  is just that some of you are like little kids that cannot take a strong comment. If you cannot take what I write then you know what to do. Writting back in trying to get into a pissing contest with me will seve nothing but yourslef own ego and drag the thread into a pissing contest central.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#12 2008-08-21 15:09:16

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: east west

I truly do not think that the old stuff is too hard. YES there is some stuff that is directly aimed for scholars BUT so many books written by Chinese, Korean and Japanese masters were directly aimed at common folks and even if they were written several hundreds of years ago are easy to read and understand in English PLUS it does not take a rocket scientist too see what was really culturally relevant at the time from what is not relevant today.

What's more, much of it is available on the internet at no cost.  Another good way to determine if the Dharma IS really the Dharma is to ask for it for free.  Many books are written by modern monks and teachers where the proceeds go to their monastery or organization.  Folks who write books and make money off them for themselves are not spreading the Dharma.  In fact, using the Dharma or the Sangha for financial gain is against the Vinaya.  I don't know where the money for Alan Watt's books go, so I am not trying to start that argument.  In short, the Dharma is and always has been free.  The only cost is your effort and time.  Buddhanet has many works translated into English for free on their website.  Other sites have similar libraries.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#13 2008-08-21 16:41:57

David Earl
Member
From: SE Iowa
Registered: 2006-05-29
Posts: 69

Re: east west

What a riot. With all due respect Gishan don't you think Old Men like Bodhidharma, Lao Tsz, Han Shan,... were thought of in their time as something like "new age hippy types". And I dare say not one of these Old Men advocated reading anything. smile


Spring peepers provide
a croaking choral backdrop
sleep time aria

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#14 2008-08-21 16:51:12

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: east west

buji wrote:

What a riot. With all due respect Gishan don't you think Old Men like Bodhidharma, Lao Tsz, Han Shan,... were thought of in their time as something like "new age hippy types". And I dare say not one of these Old Men advocated reading anything. smile

Sure if you want to play it this way. But those people had substance and years of studies and training behind them. Most of what I have seen in North-America is just new age crapola.

The point is and remains read the classics then talk. Talking before reading any of the classics equates to the usual armchair philosopher that wants to show off and talk about stuff he has no freaking idea of.

How can you judge or bable about the classics and the basics if you have never read or studied them and only rely on what some new agey teacher says?


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#15 2008-08-21 17:11:20

David Earl
Member
From: SE Iowa
Registered: 2006-05-29
Posts: 69

Re: east west

Good points Sir all in the realm of good and bad, like and dislike, young and old, classic new age, crap not crap. Could it not be that what has distilled down to the present in books is the most static of the static dusty of the dustiest, stuck in the past, museum quality, lifeless, translated by who knows who for what purpose off the mark ink blots.

I agree with reading the classics not so sure it gives one any more credibility to judge or bable about them.

I just cannot agree that reading the classics before talking somehow makes what you say more credible. Seems experience is a key element here. Anyone speaking should have knowledge and experience they go hand in hand.
With deep respect.


Spring peepers provide
a croaking choral backdrop
sleep time aria

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#16 2008-08-21 17:20:48

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: east west

buji wrote:

I agree with reading the classics not so sure it gives one any more credibility to judge or bable about them.

I just cannot agree that reading the classics before talking somehow makes what you say more credible. Seems experience is a key element here. Anyone speaking should have knowledge and experience they go hand in hand.
With deep respect.

Well at least reading the right stuff will be a starting point. still doe not give the reader credibility or real knowledge to bable about it but at least minimal knowledge to ask real questions and possibly be able to have meaningfull discussion with a teacher.


Yes experience is the key indeed BUt how can you have experience or knowledge to talk about a particular subject if you did  not do the basics? The same goes with shakuhachi, brain surgery etc.

The problem is that most people want to talk about it with ZERO knwoledge in their backpack and expect that their conclusions will be accepted and when they are not it is a direct confrontation.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#17 2008-08-21 17:33:41

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: east west

Indigo wrote...."I am wondering..."

Very good, carry on !

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#18 2008-08-21 22:12:23

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: east west

edosan wrote:

Gishin wrote:

I am not angry.  It  is just that some of you are like little kids that cannot take a strong comment. If you cannot take what I write then you know what to do. Writting back in trying to get into a pissing contest with me will seve nothing but yourslef own ego and drag the thread into a pissing contest central.

I could beat you in  a pissing contest with both hands tied behind my back...

[And you did not answer my question about Alan Watts...]

Great if we ever meet I will give you a medal!

Why do I need to answer your question on Alan Watts? What will this serve? Why waste my time on idiotic stuff such as this?

What are you trying to achieve by this type of confrontation?

I will make myself pretty clear. Arguing on this part of the forum is all good. To argue write clear opinions based either on facts or on what you believe makes sense by writing in details what you want to expose or share. Anything that does not fall in this category will be DELETED. This goes for anyone. Again we need to bring out the big guns by either closing a thread or deleting posts because some users just need to valorize themselves by going on playfull words pissing contests.

No new age or unclear questions leading towards nothing to begin with will be tolerated. Am I too harsh ? Most likely! Why am I doing this? To limit pointless posts that have no relation with Buddhism and the classical culture that is connectec with it PLUS save myself and others time. Its all good with me if there is not so many posts in this section because I seek quality and not quantity in order to better infrom readers.

If you all want to go rant about new agey stuff  etc there is the unmoderated part of the forum for this. This was made clear by the admins on many occasions.


Now gotta go take care of some other fecal matter its diaper changing time!


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#19 2008-08-21 22:22:41

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: east west

guys please  !

just when i thought it was safe to start reading here again .....

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#20 2008-08-21 22:47:12

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: east west

lowonthetotem wrote:

Another good way to determine if the Dharma IS really the Dharma is to ask for it for free.

[...]

Folks who write books and make money off them for themselves are not spreading the Dharma.  In fact, using the Dharma or the Sangha for financial gain is against the Vinaya.

This may coincide with the Vinaya (which was written by and for the new monastic society which arose after the Buddha's time), but what is written in the vinaya as a portrayal of how things worked is not a reliable history. For a start, it does not coincide with archeology. For example, around some of the ancient stupas in India there are inscriptions to name who donated the money to build the stupas. Donations often came from monks. The monks had cash. This is not a new phenomena. They even owned land and so on (had private property). This does go against the vinaya. This is another problem of outsiders reading the texts - they can easily get a picture which does not coincide with reality. Don't believe all you read! What was written was a very idealised picture. Also each different tradition had different bias. For example, many Western scholars used to think that the Pali tradition was the most authentic because the texts were the oldest. What they did not realise was that the Pali tradition was actually the most biased towards monasticism (hierarchical social stucture, comfortable living style, emphasis on textual study and memorisation, texts as highest authority) and away from the older "Forest" mode (emphasis on meditation, isolated living and the master-disciple relationship) and had attained this bias very early on.

Anyway, about money, I think it's not a good way to judge. Where have hard copies of the Tripitaka been available for the last 2000 years? Could ordinary people get that for free? Or did they have to pay? Then is it not dharma? Also it has been traditional to pay teachers, even with gold back in India. That does not mean it is not dharma. If it can be free, that is wonderful. That is usually because some sponsors have paid for it to be such. That is a wonderful situation.

Also even if the money made from books etc DOES go to the individual, is that bad or selfish? That fact by itself is not enough to judge. I have seen some very corrupt monks who gather money and spend it selfishly. That's not proper dharma, I'm sure you would agree. But many of the greatest masters are not monks, just lay-people. These people have themselves to support, and often families. So even if they are dedicated to teaching the dharma, then they must also make money. That can be a complicated challenge. If they have zero selfishness, they will have no problems about that I'm sure.

Gishin wrote:

Most contemporary people that wrote books DO lack substance and most of them basically have no tangible or legitimate training and based their writings on their own self assumptions outside of any deep knowledge of the original language in which the stuff they write about is written in. Also they lack a lot of cultural and historical background to be able to pass a deep and really unbiased judgement or evaluation of any writings.

Hi Gishin
So, perhaps better to focus on the good ones. I think the reason for many substanceless books these days compared to the older days is due to how easy it is to publish books these days. It used to be really so difficult! And even then, the bad ones that did get printed may not have been valued enough to be preserved, republished and handed down. So I think you are right in that there are some really excellant texts.

Compared to regular people 2000 years ago, most people here on the forum are scholars. We all have studied so much at school. That is one reason why our background from which we read is different. We have a vast body of knowledge within us. And of course, that body of knowledge is sometimes at odds with tradition. On the other hand, it means we generally have already refined logical abilities and so on.

I think the thing to realise is that although much of what is written today is commercial, or just off the mark, there is still a good deal of material which is dead on the mark. There are modern masters who come from within the tradition itself, such as Chogyam Trungpa as I suggested. He grew up in a traditional and ancient way, but expressed in a very direct modern way aimed at the Western audience. There are others like him, both Easterners and Westerners with thorough traditional training. As I mentioned one of these is Adyashanti, who was trained in Zen. He doesn't teach tradition or ancient texts (I'm sure many masters of old also did not teach tradition or texts also) but just teaches the most direct path to awakening.

Unless it is culture you are after, in the end it is irrelevant what you have studied, what you have read, whether you are ordained or not or any of these things. Those things are nice, but in the end it comes down to realisation. If that's what you're after, then actually it doesn't even matter whether you go to a Zen master or a Sufi master - it will be the same.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-08-21 22:56:54)

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#21 2008-08-21 23:13:12

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: east west

I agree with Gishin about the importance of knowing the classics (and have lots of reading to do!)  and also with Jdanza on the value of contemporary experience.  Book learning is essential but most people would want their brain surgeon to have adequate familiarity with the living body (and the nonliving one too) in addition to a facility for working with the anatomy texts.  To get that balance right...  And as Justin pointed out,  work with a master is part of the Buddhist tradition; perhaps one may find some texts more useful after having had that kind of experience.   I always think of how martial arts books were never very helpful to me until after I had studied the art for some time with a teacher.  I always think of Jung when Freud's name comes up; what do people think of his work these days? I think Gishin may be approaching with his stick.  By all means carry on, as Karmajampa suggested...

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-08-21 23:14:44)

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#22 2008-08-22 00:23:33

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3206
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Re: east west

"Hey man like Jesus was a hippy himself man because he had long hair and shit. But they didn't have scissors and shit but if they did would he have used them and been normal or would he still have been a hippy and shit? We don't know because He didn't write English and shit. Pass the bowl man you're bogarting!"

Closing this thread because it's stupid.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#23 2008-08-22 00:26:01

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1521
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Re: east west

Gishin wrote:

edosan wrote:

Gishin wrote:

I am not angry.  It  is just that some of you are like little kids that cannot take a strong comment. If you cannot take what I write then you know what to do. Writting back in trying to get into a pissing contest with me will seve nothing but yourslef own ego and drag the thread into a pissing contest central.

I could beat you in  a pissing contest with both hands tied behind my back...

[And you did not answer my question about Alan Watts...]

Great if we ever meet I will give you a medal!

Why do I need to answer your question on Alan Watts? ...

Because, gosh darn it, Alan Watts is just the kind of guy you could sit down and share a beer with. <slapping knee>


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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