Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

#1 2008-05-09 21:08:33

Frankenflute
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 23

Saturation absorption?

Hi Ji Nashi Fans

Sometimes when I play my Ji Nashi, it seems that the flute is absorbing much more of my breath into the bore than a ji ari, and my playing really slows down because of this effect, like there is more union between the breath and the instrument itself, and less like the flute is being "Played".

There also seems to be a saturation of the flute with breath, so that the resonance is less like a pure vibration being produced by breath and more like an amplification of just breath.

Does this make sense to anyone? I feel it difficult to express what I am trying to say, but I suppose that is the nature of shakuhachi, they defy definition.

Namaskar

Francis

Offline

 

#2 2008-05-10 11:39:13

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Saturation absorption?

I've never played on jiari before but I have a pair of jinashi flutes, one a mid-ranged 3.3 and a higher-end 2.8. The higher-end flute sings a bit more and takes much less breath to get a long, solid note (this is probably in part due to the shorter length in addition to the flute's quality). The longer flute is very breathy and I find myself sometimes accidentally (though I like the sound of it) adding a tiny bit of voice in the notes -- that creates a really substantial interplay of sound. Perhaps this type of thing is what you mean by an 'amplification of just breath'...

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

Offline

 

#3 2008-05-10 12:29:39

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 871
Website

Re: Saturation absorption?

Frankenflute wrote:

Hi Ji Nashi Fans

Sometimes when I play my Ji Nashi, it seems that the flute is absorbing much more of my breath into the bore than a ji ari, and my playing really slows down because of this effect, like there is more union between the breath and the instrument itself, and less like the flute is being "Played".

There also seems to be a saturation of the flute with breath, so that the resonance is less like a pure vibration being produced by breath and more like an amplification of just breath.

Does this make sense to anyone? I feel it difficult to express what I am trying to say, but I suppose that is the nature of shakuhachi, they defy definition.

Namaskar

Francis

Francis,

I've found there is much tone variation among jinashi shakuhachi. They can be made to sound closer to the projection and volume found in many jiari shakuhachi as well as the diffused, absorbed tone generally characteristic of the jinashi style.

If we're on the same page here when talking of "absorbed tone," it seems to be the result of a natural, softer, unlacquered bore and to some extent a wider bore. I think this also results in a rounder tone (or amplication of breath itself) which might make one feel a close union with the instrument.

But is this exclusive to jinashi and not jiari? Hmm. I don't know. Are you bird or sky?

Offline

 

#4 2008-05-10 21:50:44

Frankenflute
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 23

Re: Saturation absorption?

Thanks Fellas

Yes, it seems the absorbed tone is what I was looking for, my ji nashi is definitely a soft one, and the ji ari flutes that I have seem very resonant but of a cooler tone, but I suppose that could just be the bamboo and not necessarily the filler of the different flutes. I like the way Monty Levenson talks about "Shakuhachi Darkness", it seems a very good expression for an instrumental tradition created by monks who contemplated the void all day, but it is a void that attracts people with a fascination. This Darkness seems to thicken when we talk about Ji Nashi.

Offline

 

#5 2008-05-13 13:31:23

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 917
Website

Re: Saturation absorption?

Frankenflute wrote:

Sometimes when I play my Ji Nashi, it seems that the flute is absorbing much more of my breath into the bore than a ji ari, and my playing really slows down because of this effect, like there is more union between the breath and the instrument itself, and less like the flute is being "Played". Francis

Hi Francis.

I find it fascinating to read people putting words on what they feel when playing.
Thank you for your contribution!

It is interesting that you find your playing slows down because of the absorbing of breath. We may be talking about a similar effect when I find that jinashi shakuhachi usually (not always - it all depends on how they are constructed) have a slower response than jinuri/jiari shakuhachi. I have so far interpreted the reason to be that due to the unevenness of the bore, the note is produced slower.

Frankenflute wrote:

There also seems to be a saturation of the flute with breath, so that the resonance is less like a pure vibration being produced by breath and more like an amplification of just breath.

Is it the noise sound that is usually more present than in jinuri shakuhachi you are talking about? That is probably due to the rougher bore and to some extent the shape of the mouthpiece, which requires a more relaxed embouchure. But jinashi shakuhachi today have many types of bore and mouthpieces... so it is difficult to talk about jinashi shakuhachi as one unity as they vary so much. But you can talk about trends and tendencies... so one could say, I think, that jinashi usually have more breathy sounds than jinuri.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

Offline

 

#6 2008-05-14 20:38:23

Frankenflute
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 23

Re: Saturation absorption?

Hi Kiku!
Thanks for your contribution. Yes, my Ji Nashi is a bamboo utaguchi from Taro Miura-san, very soft and mellow, and I can imagine that there would be heaps of variation between other Ji nashi Shakuhachi.I think what I was trying to say about this flute being a mere amplification of breath is that there seems to be less resistance to the breath and more of a response that changes colour and shape very closely to what the breath does, because with my other flutes with lacquer it's a bit like they produce a characteristic unified tone colour that resonates with a certain amount of breath, kind of a bit like there's less variation in the response.

I've read your story about how when looking for flute bamboo some pieces seem to cry out "Pick me!", it sounds animistic, like there really are spirits in certain plants that have a voice to be heard. I saw an Aboriginal guy from Palm Island in QLD play the didjeridu once, and before he played he spoke something in language through the didj, later telling me that he was talking to the spirit in the Didjeridu.

Maybe my new David Brown Redgum shakuhachi I'm waiting for will be infested with Gremlins! Ha ha.

Francis

Offline

 

#7 2008-05-15 11:52:08

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 871
Website

Re: Saturation absorption?

Frankenflute wrote:

I think what I was trying to say about this flute being a mere amplification of breath is that there seems to be less resistance to the breath and more of a response that changes colour and shape very closely to what the breath does, because with my other flutes with lacquer it's a bit like they produce a characteristic unified tone colour that resonates with a certain amount of breath, kind of a bit like there's less variation in the response.

I've read your story about how when looking for flute bamboo some pieces seem to cry out "Pick me!", it sounds animistic, like there really are spirits in certain plants that have a voice to be heard. I saw an Aboriginal guy from Palm Island in QLD play the didjeridu once, and before he played he spoke something in language through the didj, later telling me that he was talking to the spirit in the Didjeridu.

Maybe my new David Brown Redgum shakuhachi I'm waiting for will be infested with Gremlins! Ha ha.

Francis

Interesting stuff Francis! Robert Moog, of synthesizer fame, touches on ideas of sound variety, connection to the material, etc., here.

Offline

 

#8 2008-05-16 07:39:01

Frankenflute
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 23

Re: Saturation absorption?

Hello Ken

Yeah, it seems that connection to one's chosen material comes with time whether it's a stick of bamboo or advanced 70's circuitry. My friend Roland is creating an interactive program where movements on a kind of monitored dance floor are connected to synthesiser riffs  and lights that all connect according to mathematical formulae....He explains it to me but I get lost and start thinking about breathing instead ha ha.

Offline

 

#9 2008-05-16 08:05:47

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1040
Website

Re: Saturation absorption?

Hi Frankenflute,

Frankenflute wrote:

Hello Ken

Yeah, it seems that connection to one's chosen material comes with time whether it's a stick of bamboo or advanced 70's circuitry. My friend Roland is creating an interactive program where movements on a kind of monitored dance floor are connected to synthesiser riffs  and lights that all connect according to mathematical formulae....He explains it to me but I get lost and start thinking about breathing instead ha ha.

http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/3flutes.jpg

Here is an image from a show I collaborated on called Jet Stream in 2006. It uses the Isadora software that allows an interplay of sound, movement and video (and probably lights but we never got that far). In one part of the show, a video camera picks up the dancers' movements and triggers sound effects. In the photo above, the  earth's rotation was influenced by the sound and rhythm of the shakuhachi. It's never the same because the software is sensitive to volume and dynamics. The effects were programed by Brian Nishii, the player in the rear.

The origins of the shakuhachi seems to be base in improvisation, influenced by what the breath was doing that moment. I feel the MA in the music was written in to provide an interplay with nature (aside form other things). When ever I play Honkyoku, I hear everything in the MA as music. And when I'm improvising with a computer software program on stage, it still feels like I'm having a conversation with birds at dawn.

Enjoy the breathing, namaste, Perry

Last edited by Yungflutes (2008-05-16 08:06:36)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

Offline

 

#10 2008-05-16 08:11:36

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3207
Website

Re: Saturation absorption?

Yungflutes wrote:

The effects were programed by Brian Nishii, the player in the rear.

Brian Nishii, that's a blast from the past! Tell him I say "hi". smile


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#11 2008-05-16 10:02:13

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Saturation absorption?

Yungflutes wrote:

It uses the Isadora software that allows an interplay of sound, movement and video (and probably lights but we never got that far).

I LOVE Isadora -- have done several gigs with it mixing live and prerecorded video, and it's the most intuitive software for this I know of. It's rare to have a programmer like Mark Coniglio who understands the artistic end of it so well.

Offline

 

#12 2008-05-20 03:33:46

Frankenflute
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 23

Re: Saturation absorption?

Hello Mr Yung

Wow, Jet Stream looks amazing. I have forwarded your message to Roland, to see if he knows about Isadora. I'm working on a collaboration with some Indonesian Dancers, called "TheEagle and the Serpent", using shakuhachi and various other instruments, they do overtone singing while they dance, but we haven't broken the multimedia barrier yet, maybe I have to try this Isadora business.

Namaskar
Francis

Offline

 

#13 2008-05-20 20:51:58

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1040
Website

Re: Saturation absorption?

Frankenflute wrote:

Hello Mr Yung

Wow, Jet Stream looks amazing. I have forwarded your message to Roland, to see if he knows about Isadora. I'm working on a collaboration with some Indonesian Dancers, called "TheEagle and the Serpent", using shakuhachi and various other instruments, they do overtone singing while they dance, but we haven't broken the multimedia barrier yet, maybe I have to try this Isadora business.

Namaskar
Francis

Hi Frankenflute,
the performance was a fun time for all.
Here is a link to more photos from the original thread :

http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=49

Your collaboration sounds exciting. Where will it be performed?

Tairaku wrote:

Brian Nishii, that's a blast from the past! Tell him I say "hi". smile

I will he got married since you last saw him. He going to Japan soon and will bring back some shakuhachi for me.

Nyokai wrote:

I LOVE Isadora -- have done several gigs with it mixing live and prerecorded video, and it's the most intuitive software for this I know of. It's rare to have a programmer like Mark Coniglio who understands the artistic end of it so well.

Phil, Do you program? Isadora had too big a learning curve for me. I guess I only have patience for shakuhachi making smile
Brian Nishii is also a very talent performer/artist so it's always pleasure to work with him. He's always interested in the production end of shows.
Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

Offline

 

#14 2008-08-23 11:14:47

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Saturation absorption?

Frankenflute wrote:

Hi Ji Nashi Fans

Sometimes when I play my Ji Nashi, it seems that the flute is absorbing much more of my breath into the bore than a ji ari, and my playing really slows down because of this effect, like there is more union between the breath and the instrument itself, and less like the flute is being "Played".

There also seems to be a saturation of the flute with breath, so that the resonance is less like a pure vibration being produced by breath and more like an amplification of just breath.

Does this make sense to anyone? I feel it difficult to express what I am trying to say, but I suppose that is the nature of shakuhachi, they defy definition.

Namaskar

Francis

Acoustically speaking, jinashi flutes are much less efficient than jiaris, as the smoothness of the bore in the latter promotes the propagation and regeneration of the standing wave in the air column. There is something called the "boundary effect" in acoustical physics, in which air molecules within 1 mm or so of the walls are slowed by friction, and their energy converted to heat. Obviously a rough bore has more surface area and thus the effect is greater. There are also turbulence effects which further cut down the acoustic efficiency of a rough bore, and an uneven bore will affect the proportion of the harmonics.

That all being said, efficiency isn't everything ;-)

Toby

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google