Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

  • Index
  •  » Recordings
  •  » Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

#1 2005-11-08 03:29:55

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Pros: Please give us your Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without

Last edited by Chris Moran (2005-11-11 21:36:07)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

Offline

 

#2 2005-11-16 06:05:35

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Hi,

These are the four I can't live without. The fifth is left to the imagination. I have taken the descriptions from the Mejiro website.

1. "Hocchiku" Watazumido

List of the Songs:1.Saji 2.Watazumi no Shirabe 3.Sugagaki 4.Mushirabe 5.Suzuru 6.Sanya 7.Sanan 8.Kudariha (Kansai) 9.Kudariha (Oshu) 10.Koku-ji 11.Tamuke 12.Hifumi no Shirabe 13.Honshirabe *Bonus Tracks* 14.Reiho 15.Shingetsu

If you counted the five I listen to most frequently, they would probably all be by Watazumi. He was the most amazing player I've heard, very natural.

2."Jin Nyodo no Shakuhachi (=Jin Nyodo's Shakuhachi)" C0034 /28000 JPY

Compilation of the lifework of one of the shakuhachi legends is now available in CD. LP version of the recordings received the Best LP of the Year at the National Art Festival in 1980. Total of 49 songs, including 10 recently discovered tracks. Monoral. Explanatory booklet (128 pages in Japanese only) included.

Disc1: Nezasaha Shirabe, Nezasaha Sagariha, Nezasaha Sanya Seiran, Nezasaha Tori Kadotsuke Hachigaeshi, Nezasaha Nagashi Reibo, Nezasaha Matsukaze, Nezasaha Shi Shi, Nezasaha Sanya Seikaku
Disc2: Nezasaha Shirabe Koku, Nezasaha Shirabe Sagariha, Nezasaha Matsukaze, Jin Nyodo Shokyoku Daiwagaku, Ikkan Ryu Ikkan Ryu Rokudan, Echigo Meianji Sanya, Jin Nyodo Shokyoku Mujushikyoku, Nezasaha Nagashi Reibo, Nezasaha Matsukaze
Disc3: Renpoken Hi Kyoku, Futaiten Sanya, Futaiken Reibo, Shoganken Reibo, Kinko Ryu Banshikicho, Futaiken Reibo
Disc4: Kinko Ryu Shika no Tone, Kinko Ryu Hi Fu Mi Hachigaeshi no Shirabe, Kinko Ryu Sanya Sugagaki, Rogenji Takiochi, Fudaiji Tsuru no Sugomori, Kinko Ryu Sokaku Reibo, Kinko Ryu Yugure no Kyoku
Disc5: Fudaiji Koku, Fudaiji Mukaiji, Fudaiji Choshi, Yobitake Uketake, Fudaiji Kyorei, Kyoto Myoanji Choshi, Kyoto Myoanji Darani, Kyoto Myoanji Murasaki Reiho , Nezasaha Shirabe Shi Shi, Jin Nyodo Seikyoku Mujushinkyoku
Disc6: Kyoto Myoanji Tsuru no Sugomori, Kokutaiji Horai, Ichoken Ajikan, Ichoken Sa Shi, Ichoken Banshiki, Ichoken Asuma no Kyoku, Ichoken Kumoijishi, Ichoken Ajikan, Tsuru no Sugomori


Handwritten Original Koten Honkyoku Sheet Music by Jin Nyodo /B0104 / 50000 JPY
27 Sheet Music/Total of 51 pieces
This sheet music has never been displayed to the public. Because of its graphics-inclined features, melody and structure of each song is easy to comprehend. This sheet music has been highly praised as a bona fide piece of musical legacy that should be handed down to future generations.  Click here for included titles.
:::Must be purchased as a whole set:::

Jin Nyodo was the head of the line I belong to. He travelled widely and collected these honkyoku, bringing them together to create a fine repertoire. Sound quality (and at times the playing) are not great, but it's an amazing reference work. It spans Nezasaha, Kinko and Myoan sources. This was recorded informally when Jin was old, which gives it a certain rustic charm.


3. C0081"The National Treasure Goro Yamaguchi's Shakuhachi no Shinzui"[=The Soul of Shakuhachi] and Shakuhachi Honkyoku The posthumous work by one of the most respected shakuhachi players of our time. Still Available

Price:36000 Yen Record Company: Japan Victor
EOL's (Ethnomusicology OnLine) review of this CD set click here.

Disc 1: Hifumi Hachigaeshi, Takiochi no Kyoku, Akita Sugagaki, Koro Sugagaki
Disc 2: Kyushu Reibo, Shizu no Kyoku, Kyo Reibo
Disc 3: Mukai Ji Reibo, Koku Reibo, Ikkan-ryu Koku Kaete
Disc 4: Banshiki-cho, Shin Kyorei, Kin San Kyorei
Disc 5: Yoshiya Reibo, Yugure no Koyku
Disc 6: Sakae Jishi
Disc 7: Uchikae Kyorei, Igusa Reibo, Izu Reibo
Disc 8: Reibo-Nagashi, Sokaku Reibo, Sanya Sugagaki, Shimotsuke Kyorei
Disc 9: Meguro Jishi, Ginryu Koku
Disc 10: Sayama Sugagaki, Sagari ha no Kyoku, Namima Reibo, Shika no Tone (solo)
Disc 11: Shikano Tone (Duet), Hoshosu, Akebono Shirabe, Akebono Sugagaki
Disc 12: Ashi no Shirabe, Kotoji no Kyoku, Kinuta Sugomori, Tsuki no Kyoku, Kotobuki Shirabe

Yamaguchi Goro is to me the best, most ego-less, of the Kinko players. His sound is pure beauty.

4. "the art of the shakuhachi vol.2" by Kifu Mitsuhashi C0150/2858 yen

Contents: Echigo Reibo, Yamato Joshi, Kyorei, Echigo Sanya, Marobashi Sugagaki, Takiochi, Ajikan (*Liner notes written in English)

Kifu Sensei is the most interesting representative of the Jin Nyodo style today, because he has remained true to the music, while at the same time developing his own phrasing and tone. He has taken the Jin Nyodo repertoire to the next level of musicianship. I don't believe in "best" or "better" but if I had to name one "best" player of today it would be Mitsuhashi Kifu. Any of his honkyoku recordings are wonderful.

This list contains only honkyoku recordings. Many styles are not represented including gaikyoku, Tozan, shinkyoku, etc. My fifth would be a non-traditional shakuhachi CD, but I don't think the definitive one has been recorded yet, so I'm leaving that slot blank.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#3 2005-11-20 17:41:58

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

I would agree completely with Tairaku's choices. I would add some sankyoku:

Yamaguchi Goro's 4-CD sankyoku set (Victor VZCG-8080) which includes, among others, Hagi no Tsuyu, Uji Meguri, Nana Komachi, Iso Chidori, Yaegoromo, Tama Gawa, Zangetsu... Really wonderful ensemble playing, easy to play along with.

"Shakuhachi no Shirabe", a 2-CD collection on King Records that includes some excellent Kinko honkyoku with Yamaguchi Goro and Aoki Reibo (Shika no Tone, Yugure, etc.) as well as the sankyoku Shiki no Nagame, Yaegoromo, Hagi no Tsuyu and others.

The King Records CD called simply "Sankyoku", which includes recordings of Yaegoromo, Hagi no Tsuyu, and Sho-Chiku-Bai by Yamaguchi Goro, Yamamoto Hozan, and Aoki Shizuo, respectively.

Offline

 

#4 2005-11-20 18:20:59

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

nyokai wrote:

I would agree completely with Tairaku's choices. I would add some sankyoku:

Yamaguchi Goro's 4-CD sankyoku set (Victor VZCG-8080) which includes, among others, Hagi no Tsuyu, Uji Meguri, Nana Komachi, Iso Chidori, Yaegoromo, Tama Gawa, Zangetsu... Really wonderful ensemble playing, easy to play along with.

Good choice Phil. Isn't it cool how we managed by use of box sets to turn the top 5 CD's into about 20 CD's? wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#5 2005-11-22 01:15:00

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Tairaku wrote:

Isn't it cool how we managed by use of box sets to turn the top 5 CD's into about 20 CD's? wink

Evil.

Clever, but still .... evil.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

Offline

 

#6 2006-05-15 18:38:44

ima_hima
Member
From: Brooklyn, NY
Registered: 2005-11-16
Posts: 30

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

So, if one wanted to purchase these discs from Japanese labels in say, NYC, anybody have any idea how to go about it? Sadly, my Japanese is no longer good enough to maneuver the record labels' websites.

Eric

Offline

 

#7 2006-05-15 23:34:24

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

ima_hima wrote:

So, if one wanted to purchase these discs from Japanese labels in say, NYC, anybody have any idea how to go about it? Sadly, my Japanese is no longer good enough to maneuver the record labels' websites.

Eric

http://www.mejiro-japan.com/system/index_e.php?c_id=15 is the web page you are looking for. It is in English. You can download the entire CD/Book catalog in .pdf format or you can click on "Best Selling CD" in the side navigation bar to see both Jin Nyodo and Yamaguchi Goro CD sets.

I've ordered from Mejiro several times with a VISA debit card and it is very efficient and safe. Shipping on any of these large CD sets will probably cost a few bucks too. So be prepared.  --c.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

Offline

 

#8 2006-05-17 22:22:38

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

One can only say yes to Watazumi Do, Yamaguchi Goro, and Jin Nyodo, though I don't actually own any of the boxed sets...someday....  To recommend the top cds that no one should be without is a tall order so I'll just throw in a few single CDs that I've enjoyed listening to a lot.

"Yokoyama Katsuya Plays Shakuhachi"  1 or 2
Yoshikazu Iwamoto - "The Spirit of Silence" or The "Spirit of Dusk"
Akikazu Nakamura -  The World of Zen Music "Saji" or "Shakuhachi Music from Kyushu"   (Iwamoto and Nakamura have each developed a very distinctive style of playing honkyoku; both originally studied under Yokoyama Katsuya but how different their music is from his and from each other!)   
Riley Lee - "The Eagle and the Ocean" (with ambient electric guitar - a personal favorite for accompanying occasional tai chi practice) or "Wild Honey Dreaming" (with didgeridoo)
Any sankyoku recording with Yagi Keiji on shamisen (perhaps available on record?) or the cd "So," on King Records -- contains no shakuhachi so does not really qualify for this list but is great for listening to or trying to play along with as it contains Rokudan, Midare, Godan-Ginuta, Chidori No Kyoku, and Aki No Kyoku; accompanying Midare at the speed it is played here is quite challenging.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2006-05-17 22:25:48)

Offline

 

#9 2008-09-01 07:55:44

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Here are five of my favorites that are relatively easy to get (either from Amazon or Mejiro). I should have included some sankyoku/shinkyoku
as well but I had a hard time narrowing that one down (Yamaguchi Goro has some really nice recordings of sankyoku that would fit the bill).
I agree with the Brian and Phil about the Yamaguchi boxed set, but it is pretty hard to get/expensive. The Yamaguchi Goro I've listed is very
easily obtainable. Michael Gould's: "Shakuhachi The Bamboo Flutes of Japan - performed by: Michael Chikuzen Gould - Private Label" should
also be on the list but you can't get the recording at a regular outlet (you have to contact him or go to his website chikuzenstudios.com)

1) Zen - Katsuya Yokoyama Plays Classical Shakuhachi Masterworks - performed by: Katsuya Yokoyama and Ranpo Yokoyama - WERGO SM 1033/34-50
2) Shingetsu - performed by: Tadashi Tajima - Music of the World, Ltd. CDT124
3) Shakuhachi Minyo Selections - performed by: Iwao Yoneya. Japanese Release (re-release of the out-of-print CD on King Records KICW8632)
4) Shakuhachi Music: A Bell Ringing in the Empty Sky - preformed by: Goro Yamaguchi - Nonsuch Explorer Series 130364-2
5) Breath-Sight - performed by Riley Lee - PolyGram Tall Poppies series TPO15

P.S. I think number one about (Zen) is an absolute must.
P.P.S. I think the Watazumi listed by the others above is also a good choice but hard to get.
P.P.P.S this is a tough question!


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

Offline

 

#10 2008-09-01 09:02:02

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Michal wrote:

I have added especially one piece extra: Mr. Sakai plays the Futaiken Reibo. That sounds like Wabi-Sabi in motion.

Very nice! Thank you for sharing. smile


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

Offline

 

#11 2008-09-02 00:30:11

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Tairaku wrote:

Kifu Sensei is the most interesting representative of the Jin Nyodo style today, because he has remained true to the music, while at the same time developing his own phrasing and tone. He has taken the Jin Nyodo repertoire to the next level of musicianship. I don't believe in "best" or "better" but if I had to name one "best" player of today it would be Mitsuhashi Kifu. Any of his honkyoku recordings are wonderful.

Hi Brian
I did not realise that Mitsuhashi was from Jin Nyodo's school. I thought his teacher was Okamoto Chikugai?

I want to recommend my favourite CD to you all. Once I have found information on it in English I will post about it.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Offline

 

#12 2008-09-02 00:40:23

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Justin wrote:

Hi Brian
I did not realise that Mitsuhashi was from Jin Nyodo's school. I thought his teacher was Okamoto Chikugai?

Well whether or not he's a member of the Jin guild he plays that repertoire but he's not as strict about it as Zenyoji for example. For example he uses yuri in some songs where Jin Nyodo specifies no yuri.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#13 2008-09-02 01:52:16

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Hi Brian
Yokoyama also plays the same repertoire. Many of us do. Passed down through the web-like lineage. Naturally there is diversity. That may not be a case of strictness. Different ways of playing get passed down through the different lines of transmission.
I like Mitsuhashi's playing too.

Anyone know of any recordings available by Okamoto Chikugai?

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Offline

 

#14 2008-09-02 04:00:58

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Justin wrote:

Anyone know of any recordings available by Okamoto Chikugai?

Okuda spoke about recordings of Okamoto Chikugai as he was the person Okuda got most advice and notations from and I think Okuda sees him as a kind of a mentor (my interpretation).
I can't remember whether he talked about personal tape recordings or 'real' commercial recordings. I will ask.
Okamoto Chikugai was a very interesting personality. He collected a lot of Fuke pieces and Okuda has a lot of different old notations of the pieces that he received from him. He hasn't shown me much but often talks about them when explaining his background in honkyoku. He always answers to the question who his teacher is, that Okamoto's notations and Watazumi's live performances are his true teachers.

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-09-02 04:05:33)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

Offline

 

#15 2008-09-02 04:24:21

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Looking forward to hearing about it. Keep us posted! Thanks Kiku.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Offline

 

#16 2008-09-02 04:59:37

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Justin wrote:

Hi Brian
Yokoyama also plays the same repertoire.

Yokoyama does NOT play anything like the Jin Nyodo repertoire. All players of Koten honkyoku play some of the same songs of course but there is no comparison between Yokoyama and Kifu or Jin Nyodo. Whereas what Kifu does is in most ways the same as Jin Nyodo just with a different sense of musicality.

If you look at Mitsuhashi Kifu's recordings every honkyoku he recorded is something you find in Jin Nyodo's recordings as well and in the same version.

Similarly Yokoyama plays mainly songs Watazumido played in the same versions notewise but a different playing style.

Even when Kifu/Nyodo and Yokoyama/Watazumi play the same song (for example Choshi/Honshirabe or "Matsukaze") it is easy to hear the difference between the two approaches.

Michael Gould and I have gone over some of the same songs from both repertoires and they are quite different in performance style including which fingers repeat the notes, which notes have kazashi or not, which phrases use kusabibuki or sasabuki, amount and placement of muraiki etc. Lots of differences between Dokyoku and Jin Nyodo.

But even besides that there are numerous honkyoku that do not overlap between the two styles.

Jin Nyodo did around 50-60 honkyoku and most of them are not in the Watazumi repertoire. Watazumi also did a similar number and most are not in the Jin Nyodo repertoire. Yokoyama does not teach all the Watazumi honkyoku. He does however teach some Kinko stuff that's in the Jin Nyodo repertoire, but not in the Watazumi repertoire. So that's a point of overlapping between Yokoyama and Jin Nyodo but that's only because they both studied Kinko. Jin Nyodo was from Aomori so he does all the Nezasaha whereas Yokoyama and Watazumi only did some. The interpretation of the Itchoken pieces is also quite different between the two camps. I could go on.

Maybe someone like Peter Hill who has studied both styles can elaborate.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#17 2008-09-02 05:16:56

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Hi Brian
What I meant by same repertoire was the same pieces. I did not mean exactly the same pieces - perhaps I should have been more specific. I meant, many of the same pieces. For example, Koku, choshi, Reibo, Takiochi etc etc. I would expect there to be pieces which Yokoyama plays that the others don't, which Jin plays and the others don't etc. (To clarify that it is all the same broad repertoire of "non-Kinko Fuke-shu honkyoku", rather than a more specific subdivision within Fuke-shu honkyoku such as Jin Nyodo-ke). And I would expect style differences too, between all of them. As you say, perhaps there are more similarities between Mitsuhashi and Jin. Jin and Watazumi at least had many different teachers and influences so I would not be surprised to find differences between the way they play. Don't know about Okamoto - did he have many different teachers? I wonder if his lineage is closely connected to some of Jin's teachers?

I like Mitsuhashi's playing a lot. Another very interesting blend of old and new styles/sounds.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-09-02 05:21:13)

Offline

 

#18 2008-09-02 09:39:46

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Yes, as Brian points out it's not just a "same Fuke repertoire" thing with Mitsuhashi, he IS playing the Jin Nyodo versions. If you have studied that repertoire or have notation you can easily play along with his recordings. His playing of Jin Nyodo's own composition Mujushin Kyoku is especially good, I think (personally I'm less in love with some of his other interpretations).

Interesting point about the difference in the Itchoken pieces. If you listen to Miyagawa Nyozan's old recording of Koku at http://www.sepia.dti.ne.jp/shakuhachi/m … nryuu.html , it is pretty much the same as Jin Nyodo's version (and of course Mitsuhashi's). If you listen to Watazumi's 1940-something version on the same page, you can hear how his individuality has started changing the music even though it's still the same basic material.

Last edited by nyokai (2008-09-02 09:46:30)

Offline

 

#19 2008-09-02 10:19:16

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

I'm not very familiar with the Jin Nyodo repertoire (I do enjoy the Mitsuhashi Kifu cd Brian recommended; must acquire that Jin Nyodo box set!), but with the style of Kinko that I play I've noticed that several pieces that have the same name in the Chikudosha and the Yokoyama repertoire -- Sagariha and Takiochi are two that immediately come to mind, are so different that I can't imagine any listener hearing the pieces from both styles ever guessing that they shared the same title.  Except for a few immediately identifiable pieces such as Hifumi Hachigaeshi and Shika No Tone, the honkyoku in both styles do not overlap.  A few years ago I noticed that on one of Akikazu Nakamura's cds the title of one piece was Sanya Sugagaki, but upon listening discovered that it was the 'three valleys' Sanya that is one of the pieces first learned in Yokoyama's school and not the standard Kinko piece.  In earlier years were honkyoku titles sometimes borrowed or fixed to compositions which were totally different pieces?  Or did some pieces which had the same origin undergo such radical changes in form depending on the sequence of players who passed the pieces down that they no longer were recognizable as being the same piece?  Or perhaps both options?

Offline

 

#20 2008-09-02 10:31:15

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Hi Daniel
Hifumi Hachigaeshi and Shika no Tone come from the Kinko repertoire. That is a different repertoire (a strongly defined sub-repertoire within Fuke-shu honkyoku). The rest of Yokoyama's honkyoku is from the non-Kinko repertoire which we were talking about here, shared by Jin Nyodo, Mitsuhashi, Yokoyama etc. For example, Sagariha as you have mentioned, in Yokoyama's school is the same piece as in Jin Nyodo's school (a different piece from the one baring the same name in Kinko-ryu). That's what I mean - it is the same repertoire. It is broad and from many different places and can be sub-categorized into Nezasa-ha, Kyushu-ke etc. but broadly speaking we may just call it non-Kinko Fuke-shu honkyoku. Various different people have learned varying amounts of the repertoire and incorporated them into what they teach. In total there are more than 100 pieces.

"Sanya" (three valleys) and "Sanya Sugagaki" are two different pieces. The Kinko pieces were composed by Kurosawa Kinko it seems. Some people say he took influences from or was inspired by other pieces. Perhaps that is where they borrowed the names from. I think the exact history is not clear. Someone may have more info here. Anyway, some pieces from each repertoire bare the same name but are basically entirely different pieces.

Nyokai, when you say Mitsuhashi IS playing the Jin Nyodo versions, are you meaning that he studied them from someone in Nyodo's school? Or from recordings of his? Or notation? I do not know well about Mitsuhashi. Are any people here on the forum students of his and could tell us more?

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-09-02 10:52:05)

Offline

 

#21 2008-09-02 11:04:56

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Hi Justin,

I realize that 'Sanya' and 'Sanya Sugagaki' are two different pieces; the latter is one of the first honkyoku we learn in the Chikudosha repertoire.  The titles 'Sagariha' and 'Takiochi No Kyoku' are also from the Kinko repertoire but the latter seems to have historical roots in the Yokoyama lineage as well; I remember Kakizakai sensei mentioning the place in Japan where the piece is said to come from; perhaps the pieces have a common origin (or maybe it is a commonly used title).  I didn't know that Yokoyama's 'Sagariha' was also a piece in the Jin Nyodo lineage; interesting...  What about the Yokoyama school's 'Tsuru No Sugomori?  Wasn't it also adopted from the standard Kinko repertoire?

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-09-02 11:20:48)

Offline

 

#22 2008-09-02 11:35:27

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Hi Justin,

I realize that 'Sanya' and 'Sanya Sugagaki' are two different pieces; the latter is one of the first honkyoku we learn in the Chikudosha repertoire.  The titles 'Sagariha' and 'Takiochi No Kyoku' are also from the Kinko repertoire but the latter seems to have historical roots in the Yokoyama lineage as well;

Hi Daniel
The Takiochi of the Kinko-ryu may have some connections to the Takiochi of the non-Kinko repertoire. Someone here may know more about that. They seem different enough to be different pieces now though. If you listen to Jin and Yokoyama playing the non-Kinko version, you can hear it is clearly the same piece.

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

What about the Yokoyama school's 'Tsuru No Sugomori?  Wasn't it also adopted from the standard Kinko repertoire?

No. That was also from the broad non-Kinko Fuke-shu honkyoku repertoire. So you will hear many more similarities with Jin Nyodo's versions also. There are many variations of this within that repertoire.

Bisei was great fun by the way. About 25 students came, great lessons, great concert and amazing food! Always fun. There's another coming soon in Chichibu if anyone is interested.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Offline

 

#23 2008-09-02 19:50:13

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Justin wrote:

Hi Brian
What I meant by same repertoire was the same pieces. I did not mean exactly the same pieces - perhaps I should have been more specific. I meant, many of the same pieces. For example, Koku, choshi, Reibo, Takiochi etc etc.

If you listen to the Jin Nyodo and Yokoyama versions of those songs you will hear that they are different pieces with the same names, which is quite common in honkyoku.

"Choshi" is universal but even that is played very differently between the two camps.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#24 2008-09-02 22:02:20

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Hi Brian
There are many pieces named Reibo across Japan. If you listen for example to Yokoyama playing Shokanken Reibo, I think you will find it is the same piece which Jin Nyodo also plays as Shoganken Reibo. . Similarly, if you listen to Jin Nyodo's Kokû (Fudaiji), you will find it is the same piece Yokoyama plays as Koku. Jin also recorded Kokû (Nezasa Ha) which is a different piece - perhaps you were thinking of that.
Also Takiochi is the same piece. Taking this as an example, if you follow Jin's first 7 breaths, you will find that it is the same as the beginning of Yokoyama's version (no not exactly the same, just like a cover version of a rockband's song would not be exactly the same, however, it is obviously the same). Then in Jin's version there is a repetition of this section, played in kan (whereas it was first played in otsu). This repetition is not in Yokoyama's version. After that, they are back together again for about 10 breaths or so, which is as far as I have time to analyse. There are occasional differences, for example Jin taking breaths more often, or difference in ornamentation and so on, as I think we can expect from the nature of the transmission of these pieces through generations of wandering shakuhachi players. So I can't agree with you that they are different pieces with the same names. Perhaps it depends on personal opinion as to how different it has to be to be judged as a different piece? One note? One phrase? Ordering? Expression? It is surely a grey line.

I do agree that the playing style is different. You mentioned Choshi. Each lineage plays differently, and indeed each person, not only these 2 camps. I think the difference is something to celebrate. Also, the closeness is a joy, so that when we come together we can all still play Choshi. That is a lovely way to share something between honkyoku players of all lineages.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Offline

 

#25 2008-09-03 02:58:16

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

I'm not very familiar with the Jin Nyodo repertoire (I do enjoy the Mitsuhashi Kifu cd Brian recommended; must acquire that Jin Nyodo box set!), but with the style of Kinko that I play I've noticed that several pieces that have the same name in the Chikudosha and the Yokoyama repertoire -- Sagariha and Takiochi are two that immediately come to mind, are so different that I can't imagine any listener hearing the pieces from both styles ever guessing that they shared the same title.  Except for a few immediately identifiable pieces such as Hifumi Hachigaeshi and Shika No Tone, the honkyoku in both styles do not overlap.  A few years ago I noticed that on one of Akikazu Nakamura's cds the title of one piece was Sanya Sugagaki, but upon listening discovered that it was the 'three valleys' Sanya that is one of the pieces first learned in Yokoyama's school and not the standard Kinko piece.  In earlier years were honkyoku titles sometimes borrowed or fixed to compositions which were totally different pieces?  Or did some pieces which had the same origin undergo such radical changes in form depending on the sequence of players who passed the pieces down that they no longer were recognizable as being the same piece?  Or perhaps both options?

Daniel, as far as I understand there are lots of explanations....
There are titles that were popular and put on different pieces (there should be a 4 character word in Japanese that explains this: same name - different piece) and some pieces that remained more or less the same but changed name (again there should be a 4 character word explaining: Same piece - different name). An example of the former is saji, but now often there are names of places or other words added to the word saji and they can be differentiated. An example of the latter is Choshi, Honchoshi, Honte no shirabe, Honshirabe - ok not so different but different enough, another perhaps clearer example is Jinbo sanya, Oshu saji and San'an. So yes, some names were fixed to totally different pieces other times it probably developed into different pieces with same origin and different names were fixed to the same piece. I am sure you know of all this, but it is very complicated - I must admit.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

Offline

 
  • Index
  •  » Recordings
  •  » Pros: Please give us 'Top 5 Shakuhachi CDs No One Should Be Without'

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google