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#1 2008-09-02 12:38:27

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

I am just continuing the discussion that occurred in the members' introduction when Thiago from Brazil introduced himself.
I was asking Justin:
What are your argument based upon, apart from a few recordings, that kodo-kai in Japan plays more like they did in the good ol' days in comparison to Olsen's hypothesis that Iwami play closer to the ol' days?
I, pesonally, would guess the answer might be somewhere in between these two opinions? I find it very interesting how people find it necessary to claim to be more 'authentic' and closer to the 'original' than others! Here I am not in particularly talking about one or two persons, but more in general.
And what were you referring to, Justin, when you again write 'our'? Yokoyama's school or kodo-kai?

Anybody else hear that Iwamoto plays note for note like Watazumi? Let me note that I am not disagreeing on this totally (partly yes) but would like to hear others opinions as I find it interesting to read how people hear music differently. smile

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-09-02 12:43:26)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#2 2008-09-02 13:39:43

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

I'm sure this is far too boring for anyone to be interested in and I actually feel that your questions are insincere to be honest. Since you have specifically asked me, I shall try to answer as concisely as possible.

Firstly I shall post here the background information to this question:

Kiku Day wrote:

Olsen mentions that Iwami Baikyoku is a very interesting case of music history as he is playing a style of kinko that has been lost already in Japan but due to his isolation in Brazil, he has kept that style alive.
Have fun playing shakuhachi! It is a wonderful instrument!

Then the post which Kiku refers to:

Kiku Day wrote:

I never thought [Iwamoto] played closer to Watazumi than Yokoyama. Does anyone think that?).

Absolutely. He often plays note for note what Watazumi plays, and his nuance is also extremely close. His tone is different. He also played at times on jinashi shakuhachi.

Kiku Day wrote:

I think the Iwami story is a bit different. He moved to Brazil with his mother. It was in the 1950s, another story when you want to take a plane to visit Japan than in the 1970s (even though I 1970s wasn't like how it is today either). The shakuhachi world in Brazil might have been slightly different to the environment Iwamoto was living in. Iwamoto taught shakuhachi at Wesleyan University, then went to UK and taught in York, Dartington and Durham Universities. He had lots of contact with musicians, ethnomusicologists and was in particular into new music and commissioned lots of composers to write for him. I know Iwami is very active and extremely important in presenting Japanese music and fusion music to Japanese-Brazilians and, of course, other Brazilians too. But they are two very different stories. I found it very interesting  to compare, though. I hadn't thought of this.

You can listen yourself if you like. Here are some recordings by Iwami:
http://www.dolsenmusic.com/books/chrysa … index.html

As he was involved as you say with fushion, and modern music (on that page there is a composition of his for flute), this is possibly where he acquired the Western influence of tonguing. I would suggest that if a player kept only to his original repertoire, there may be less chance for change?

On this page you can hear a little sample of Araki Kodo V playing shika no tone:
http://www.komuso.com/people/Araki_Kodo_V.html

On this page you can hear part of shika no tone played by Araki Kodo III
http://shakuhachi.komusou.jp/kinkoryuu/kinkoryuu.html

I am certainly not trying to say anything against Iwami. I was quite excited to hear that there is a Kodokai player in Brazil! I would love to hear more of his music. I just felt to speak up as the claim that his style of Kinko-ryu playing being lost in Japan is clearly incorrect, and indeed as is apparent from the recordings, the Kodo-kai style seems actually better preserved here in Japan (preserved somehow sounds like pickled! What I mean really is "alive and well"!) This is not to say anything against Olsen. I'm sure he is very thorough and proper. I expect that when he wrote that, Araki Kodo V was living in the U.S. The other players of our style here in Japan are quite underground. Indeed, when I first came to the lesson room, I was shocked! All of the students had amazing tone colour and played so well! Where had they all been hiding!? smile

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#3 2008-09-02 13:59:29

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Kiku Day wrote:

What are your argument based upon, apart from a few recordings, that kodo-kai in Japan plays more like they did in the good ol' days in comparison to Olsen's hypothesis that Iwami play closer to the ol' days?

Apart from recordings? Nothing other than what I have been taught by Araki Kodo and members of Kodokai. Comparing the recordings of Araki Kodo III, Araki Kodo V, and Iwami, Araki Kodo III and Araki Kodo V are far nearer in style than Araki Kodo III and Iwami. Since the recordings are records of how they played, I find this a fair way to judge how they played. This seems quite logical. Do you think otherwise?

An example of stylistic difference is that both Araki Kodo III and V play "ha tsu re" where in the same places Iwami plays "tsu re" with no "ha", and starts his "tsu" by tonguing.


Kiku Day wrote:

I find it very interesting how people find it necessary to claim to be more 'authentic' and closer to the 'original' than others!

Well, that is what was claimed by Olsen in your quote. Since that claim was in error, I presented the information and sources to correct that error. I hear you making a lot of fuss about it, but as yet I have heard no information from you to refute what I am saying. I think it is better on the forum to make less fuss and be a bit more friendly. After all, I am only here sharing information.

Kiku Day wrote:

And what were you referring to, Justin, when you again write 'our'? Yokoyama's school or kodo-kai?

Kiku, I'm sorry but this question is totally insincere. You know perfectly well beyond any doubt that I am referring to Kodo-kai. If you think that I will be embarrassed by you revealing that I am a member of both Yokoyama's school and Kodo-kai, you are quite mistaken. You may read such information on the websites of both schools and on my own. I have full consent from both teachers, who are incidentally good friends.

Kiku Day wrote:

Anybody else hear that Iwamoto plays note for note like Watazumi? Let me note that I am not disagreeing on this totally (partly yes) but would like to hear others opinions as I find it interesting to read how people hear music differently.

In case you are wondering how I came to my conclusion, I analysed Iwamoto's playing myself, note by note. It seems Riley came to the same conclusion by using the same method. It is probably the difference in tone which is throwing you.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-09-02 14:15:31)

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#4 2008-09-02 16:34:48

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Justin wrote:

Kiku Day wrote:

I find it very interesting how people find it necessary to claim to be more 'authentic' and closer to the 'original' than others!

Well, that is what was claimed by Olsen in your quote. Since that claim was in error, I presented the information and sources to correct that error. I hear you making a lot of fuss about it, but as yet I have heard no information from you to refute what I am saying. I think it is better on the forum to make less fuss and be a bit more friendly. After all, I am only here sharing information.

I agree, that is a claim by Olsen - among others, and I find that in itself interesting. I shall not at any point come with judgments whether Olsen is right or not, I shared the information he has given to the forum because his book is, in fact, very interesting. I am not at any point saying he is right in that particular claim but it was about Brazil and that is why I came with that information. Since you  state so clearly his findings are an error, I wanted to know what you based your knowledge on. I have no intent to refute your opinion at all. I thought your opinion was interesting, but you call it 'making a fuss'... well that is ok but not friendly, I'd say. But yes the forum is not always a friendly place. smile


Justin wrote:

Kiku Day wrote:

And what were you referring to, Justin, when you again write 'our'? Yokoyama's school or kodo-kai?

Kiku, I'm sorry but this question is totally insincere. You know perfectly well beyond any doubt that I am referring to Kodo-kai. If you think that I will be embarrassed by you revealing that I am a member of both Yokoyama's school and Kodo-kai, you are quite mistaken. You may read such information on the websites of both schools and on my own. I have full consent from both teachers, who are incidentally good friends.

Justin, I was confused and not at any point intending to embarrass you! I actually didn't know until now that you were member of both groups! Good for you! Why should you be embarrassed? It is no longer such a tabu to have several teachers. I have one main teacher and several others, and think that is a blessing. I think it is wonderful you have that too. But since you always write 'our' about Yokoyama's school and I knew that was not what you were referring to, I really felt confused about which one you were really talking about. So... don't be so paranoid - take a deep breath and sleep well! smile

And you know what?
There is something in this discussion that is not doing any good, so let's close it here!!! Thank you for understanding.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#5 2008-09-02 16:58:03

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Kiku Day wrote:

I find it very interesting how people find it necessary to claim to be more 'authentic' and closer to the 'original' than others! )

I think I'm going to form a ryu which will be advertised as the least authentic, newest and least spiritual of all ryu. That should at least leave me with a lot of uncontested territory. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2008-09-02 17:10:19

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Can I be the first member of your new least authentic/spiritual and new ryu, please?
One important rule is to drink cask strength whisky ! ! !


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#7 2008-09-02 22:18:42

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

In the post immediately preceding your first post to the thread in question, I wrote:

Justin wrote:

I am a student of Araki Kodo V here in Japan. It would be interesting to hear about our school in Brazil!

Later in the thread in response to you:

Justin wrote:

To my ear, Araki Kodo V is closer to Araki Kodo III than at least those recordings I have heard of Tsuna Iwami. Also there are some things which Araki Kodo V deliberately plays differently to his grandfather's style. That is his personal musical taste. In such cases, he teaches us how his grandfather played, how he plays, and let's us decide for ourselves which way we want to play.

Later in the thread again in response to you:

Justin wrote:

I just felt to speak up as the claim that his style of Kinko-ryu playing being lost in Japan is clearly incorrect, and indeed as is apparent from the recordings, the Kodo-kai style seems actually better preserved here in Japan (preserved somehow sounds like pickled! What I mean really is "alive and well"!) This is not to say anything against Olsen. I'm sure he is very thorough and proper. I expect that when he wrote that, Araki Kodo V was living in the U.S. The other players of our style here in Japan are quite underground. Indeed, when I first came to the lesson room, I was shocked! All of the students had amazing tone colour and played so well! Where had they all been hiding!? smile

Your original response:

Kiku Day wrote:

justin, i have heard ALL the music you refer to MANY times. Of course, I have heard Iwami's music before and much more than what is up on the net.
Probably Araki Kodo V was living in the US when Olsen wrote that as he did live there for many years.
What are you now referring to when you say OUR? Yokoyama Kodo-kai?

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#8 2008-09-02 23:37:55

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Kiku Day wrote:

Can I be the first member of your new least authentic/spiritual and new ryu, please?
One important rule is to drink cask strength whisky ! ! !

Oh, good; inauthentic, antispiritual new dogma  wink. Now we're making everything better.


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#9 2008-09-03 07:18:10

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

As good disciples of Buda that a lot of people say they are, nothing can be better than drunkenness isn't? 
 



Well, to me, no problem if we are in the middle ...  and anyway I never said I was Buddhist...



: {p



Peace, peace...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#10 2008-10-14 11:22:47

Larry Tyrrell
Moderator
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 2005-11-09
Posts: 73
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Hello,

Just a few words about Iwami, 'iemoto' and 'playing exactly like someone else'.  I studied with Iwami in Brazil for six months spanning 1984 and 1985. It should be pointed out that he was just retiring from being a professional engineer at that time and that he is a very talented composer.  I remember being very impressed when he spontaneously wrote out the score for Hifumi Hachigaeshi from memory on the back of some Sao Paulo hotel stationery. 

Iwami impressed on me often the significance of him being iemoto. In his view that meant that he played exactly like his teacher who played exactly like his teacher before him and so on to the dawn of shakuhachi history.  While struggling with Sagari Ha he would compliment me on my musicality and simultaneously pronounce that I would never be 'iemoto'.  Then one lesson he produced a recording of his teacher that sounded like it had been transfered from an old wax cylindder. As I listened to his teacher's rendering of Sagari Ha, although I could easily hear the continuity of transmission, the surprisingly thing to me was this: the two players played the same piece in very distinct and different ways!

Listen. I'd like to disabuse anyone of the notion that there is some special mystical magic to playing in 'the old style' or 'exactly like the master'.  Ultimately what I learned from Iwami and from my later teachers is that each player must internalize the music. The  tradition lives inside the player.  The teacher, the "source of the house" (iemoto) opens the door and lets you in. You honor the teacher and the tradition by invigorating the music with your own authentic expression.

Larry

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#11 2008-10-14 12:28:32

Nyogetsu
Kyu Dan Dai Shihan
From: NYC
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 259
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Exactly.
Well put, Larry !!


The magic's in the music and the music's in me...
"Do you believe in Magic"- The Lovin' Spoonful

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#12 2008-10-14 15:16:29

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Hi Larry.

That is very interesting you studied with Iwami. I would love to hear more about that. I do think his case and what he has accomplished in Brazil is amazing.
I think no-one plays exactly like their teacher. That is a proof of music being alive!

I can't imagine Olsen means Iwami is playing exactly like his Kodo III and IV while no-one in Japan does. Olesen is far too good a musician and scholar to say that. I read into his writings that he feels  Iwami did not change in aesthetics in the way many in Japan did with the inventions done there - to the instrument and playing techniques with many more players being around.
Olesen was honoured in SEM a few month ago, by the way.

What I also find important is also the variety in each performance for the same player. With recordings we can try to play exactly as someone on a recording. But that is learning music a descriptive way. As a jinashi shakuhachi player, I have encountered several students coming to me being much better at phrasing exactly like Watazumi after a recording. But it doesn't make them play like Watazumi. There is something subtle missing - breathing technique or something like that. An interesting phenomenon of today and a total different topic.

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-10-14 15:21:19)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#13 2008-10-14 15:34:35

Larry Tyrrell
Moderator
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 2005-11-09
Posts: 73
Website

Re: Iwami Baikyoku, Kodo-kai etc etc

Hi Kiku,

I think that's a very important point about variety. The ability of a performer to vary their performances is a key indicator of their level of internalization of the music. It is also the vital element that prevents music from becoming static.  I remember having lessons from Yokoyama in which he would use one fingering with a particular nuance at one lesson and a different one the next.  When I would ask of him, "Sensei–is it this way or that way?' he would almost invariably answer: "Yes!" He would then clarify this answer at times by playing the same passage in a third way...

This illustrates again why it is our own vitality that informs each and every performance.  That's why we love music.

By the way, thanks, Ronnie, for your kind words.  I'm happy you're back on your feet again.

Larry

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