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Seems to be a lot more men playing the shakuhachi than women. Any thoughts on that?
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I read something about social taboos preventing women from playing shakuhachi in Japan, at least in the past. Apparently it is a rather phallic symbol, and women playing it conjurs up certain "acts" which are seen as unsavory, at least in public.
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A lot more women are taking it up now, including Japanese women. There were a lot of tremendous female performers at the festival, including the 17 year old winner of the "Young Performers" competition. In the past it was just a matter of tradition.
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A lot more women are taking it up now, including Japanese women. There were a lot of tremendous female performers at the festival, including the 17 year old winner of the "Young Performers" competition. In the past it was just a matter of tradition.
That is good to hear. Is there any way to get them onto the board? As you mentioned in an earlier thread, it is like a prison around here with regard to the gender ratio.
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Yes good to hear Brian.
But lowonthetotem, the disproportionate number of men to women on the forum was what first made me first wonder about ratio of male to female shakuhachi players.
Maybe the women just don't prefer to do the forum gig as much?
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lowonthetotem wrote:
That is good to hear. Is there any way to get them onto the board? As you mentioned in an earlier thread, it is like a prison around here with regard to the gender ratio.
It's an open forum, I guess they're just not interested. I think it would be safe to say that men outnumber women in almost all musical endeavors. More men make music and when they make it they're more aggressive about getting out there with it and exploiting it.
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Tairaku wrote:
It's an open forum, I guess they're just not interested.
Hey guys, wouldn't it be a good idea to just ask the woman on the forum what they think about the highly male-like way the discussions are going on this forum?
Tairaku wrote:
I think it would be safe to say that men outnumber women in almost all musical endeavors. More men make music and when they make it they're more aggressive about getting out there with it and exploiting it.
Tairaku, thanks this is a nice example of simplification, but as a woman I think there is more to it. And just keeping it at the shakuhachi will do fine; I'm curious too. I started my lessons in a group with more woman than man, and ended up playing in groups with only man. To continue in rectilinear simplicity, might it be that woman have less longcapacity, so making the long lines and loud tones is much harder work?
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I am a woman, but I am a newbie so I keep quiet and try to learn.
Michele
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Dun Romin wrote:
Tairaku wrote:
It's an open forum, I guess they're just not interested.
Hey guys,
wouldn't it be a good idea to just ask the woman on the forum what they think about the highly male-like way the discussions are going on this forum?
Tairaku wrote:
I think it would be safe to say that men outnumber women in almost all musical endeavors. More men make music and when they make it they're more aggressive about getting out there with it and exploiting it.
Tairaku, thanks this is a nice example of simplification, but as a woman I think there is more to it. And just keeping it at the shakuhachi will do fine; I'm curious too. I started my lessons in a group with more woman than man, and ended up playing in groups with only man. To continue in rectilinear simplicity, might it be that woman have less longcapacity, so making the long lines and loud tones is much harder work?
Thanks Dun Romin, I think we've taken appropriate measures to reduce the amount of macho posturing on the forum. Maybe you're talking about the events of a few months ago? Recent posts have been civil. Anyway controversy is not exclusively male, look at Kiku Day! She likes a good brawl.
Regarding your other point, shakuhachi is more about breath control than sheer strength (although that's a plus). Women can develop that if they want to.
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Tairaku wrote:
Thanks Dun Romin, I think we've taken appropriate measures to reduce the amount of macho posturing on the forum. Maybe you're talking about the events of a few months ago? Recent posts have been civil. Anyway controversy is not exclusively male, look at Kiku Day! She likes a good brawl.
I see that you don't understand, Tairaku. I wasn't saying at all that the post are not civil. I was just referring to the different ways in which women and men use to speak, or id you prefer, brawl to each other. And I agree: controversy is not exclusively male. Only women have another way of doing it. Just try to make a brawl under water, and see if and how soon you come above the surface to take a deep breath and take care not to have water in your eyes. Get the impression? Ofcourse there are always exeptions to every rule, and Kiku is a great one. But also in her posts you can read the woman touch, specially when she puts things neatly in perpective.
Tairaku wrote:
Regarding your other point, shakuhachi is more about breath control than sheer strength (although that's a plus). Women can develop that if they want to.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant with hard work. Now only remains the question of how much strength, fatigue and time you have to put to your excersising, just to keep up with the mens tone, since the other way around seems not the custom. I heard f.e. Véronique Piron doing that great.
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Dun Romin wrote:
Tairaku wrote:
Regarding your other point, shakuhachi is more about breath control than sheer strength (although that's a plus). Women can develop that if they want to.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant with hard work. Now only remains the question of how much strength, fatigue and time you have to put to your excersising, just to keep up with the mens tone, since the other way around seems not the custom. I heard f.e. Véronique Piron doing that great.
I have a student who is 6'8" and 300 Lbs. and he has a soft tone because of asthma. Remember Japanese as a race are tiny and some of them are fierce blowers. Anyway there's more than one approach to shakuhachi. There are valid quiet styles. Strong blowing is overemphasized nowadays. Concentration is more important than just spewing a bunch of noise (although that describes what I do pretty well )
Basically it is proven that women can play shakuhachi well so I don't think it's a debate any more, they just have to determine to do it. No reason to hesitate. Everybody is responsible for their own expression.
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I would think the gender disparity is a result of tradition and nothing more. There is nothing physical or psychological that would keep a woman from playing shakuhachi. Go see how many men you see in a koto dojo. From my experience, one or none. Traditional attitudes. I recall certain African drummers telling me if a women plays Djembe she'll get spiritually and physically sick.
If you go to a music conservatory and check out the violins(as well as other instruments) you'll see plenty of women kickin' butt and taking names. Anybody who's willing to put the time and effort in can do great things!
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The aborigines say that women should not blow didgeridoo and if they do they will become infertile.
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Interesting thread so far. Maybe someone with statistics experience could determine what a sample size would need to be and then poll teachers/dojos/studios/schools for student statistics? And, just so our english-is-not-their-first-language members don't get confused, the word describing both halves of the species with regard to procreation is sex. Parts of speech have gender, people have sex. [Well, at least some of us do 8^) ] I'm way behind in my transcriptions, better get back to it, and let those better versed in these matters continue.
later...
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Bruce Hunter wrote:
Interesting thread so far. Maybe someone with statistics experience could determine what a sample size would need to be and then poll teachers/dojos/studios/schools for student statistics?
My experience has been about 50/50 male to female ratio among students.
Weren't there some Ph.D. candidates taking statistics about shakuhachi playing recently? I know I filled out a few polls and questionnaires.
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Jim Thompson wrote:
I would think the gender disparity is a result of tradition and nothing more. There is nothing physical or psychological that would keep a woman from playing shakuhachi. Go see how many men you see in a koto dojo. From my experience, one or none. Traditional attitudes. I recall certain African drummers telling me if a women plays Djembe she'll get spiritually and physically sick.
If you go to a music conservatory and check out the violins(as well as other instruments) you'll see plenty of women kickin' butt and taking names. Anybody who's willing to put the time and effort in can do great things!
Traditional (Cultural) attitudes also contain superstition and predjudice, along with all the beautiful good stuff. Out of the plethora of examples of women "kickin' it" in music, here's a cool one, http://www.evelyn.co.uk/live/hearing_essay.htm
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As I understood our Ph.D. candidate is pretty busy with shakuhachi-measures right now. But it sure would make a nice study. I'm practically curious though: what is going to be done when the results are conform the observation that started this thread? And what is going to be done about the picture when it's not?
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Individual recruitment by performers/players/students/teachers is all I can think of, and it's probably already being done. Maybe the data needs to be tracked over time, and we'll see the balance change. This is turning in to more and more work, and then there is the question of what is to be done when the data is analyzed. Maybe this is one of those things that is what it is, and no amount of pushing on this particular string would have any appreciable effect. Not to say that we shouldn't try away, I would like more players discovering the agonies and ecstasies of our instrument regardless of whether they are man, woman, Martian, or whatever. (We may already have have a non-earth-born person or two on this forum.) 8^)
later...
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Tairaku wrote:
The aborigines say that women should not blow didgeridoo and if they do they will become infertile.
Hi All,
I was trying to learn how to throat sing once with a Buriat Mongolian throat singer and asked if women throat sing. He said they do not otherwise they would not be able to have babies. His partner, a Buriat women, was in the room and she nodded in agreement.
I once took a workshop with Kifu Miitsuhashi in Japan. It was mostly a room full of older men except for two young ladies...and they certainly did not look infertile.
Peace, Perry
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Yungflutes wrote:
Tairaku wrote:
The aborigines say that women should not blow didgeridoo and if they do they will become infertile.
I was trying to learn how to throat sing once with a Buriat Mongolian throat singer and asked if women throat sing. He said they do not otherwise they would not be able to have babies. His partner, a Buriat women, was in the room and she nodded in agreement.
Well, let's say some cultural aspects are less interesting then others. We don't need to go far for those kind of super natural believes. When I lived in Italy a woman told me ernestly not to read when I was pregnant, because I could loose my sight.
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I don't know about Japan, but in the West I don't know any teachers who refuse to teach shakuhachi to women, except one whose wife is jealous and won't let him!
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That's no superstition, only a good point for a wife who knows her husband well!
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Dun Romin wrote:
That's no superstition, only a good point for a wife who knows her husband well!
Yes I'm sure there's a history there.
One other shakuhachi teacher told me, "The most unethical thing a sensei can do is to have sex with his student. I know because I've done it!"
Seriously though, humans have limitations as individuals, not because of their gender, race or whatever. Some women may not have the strength to blow shakuhachi but same goes for some men. Most of the gender inequality is based in tradition or general social trends unrelated specifically to shakuhachi.
When I started I could barely squeak out an entire phrase and I couldn't believe the length of some phrasing my teacher did. Now I can do it. That's practice and developing strength, endurance and control. Women can do that as well as men.
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Amen. So now, what about coming back to Airin's first question?
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I am a woman, but I am a newbie so I keep quiet and try to learn.
Michele
I for one would encourage you to put in your two cents, especially in this thread, given its theme. Maybe this is an example of the student being a good teacher.
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