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#1 2008-12-18 11:05:07

airin
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
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Short flutes – what about them?

I recently asked about longer flutes and received a wealth of useful information.  I now have two earth style 2.4 flutes…yes, two, but that’s another story (one for my blog perhaps).  I really love the low tones of the 2.4, very tenor sax sounding at times.  I have found the different finger positioning quite natural.  After a good practice session on my 1.8 I often reward myself with some fool around time on the 2.4.  And it was with the 2.4 that I was first able to pinpoint my Kan notes more accurately than with the 1.8.

I risk becoming a brash over indulged beginner as I turn my thoughts to shorter flutes now but really I can’t help wonder about them.  Tones are higher I am imagining.  When would you prefer a shorter flute over a longer one….certain shakuhachi pieces I would guess…but which ones and why?  What special applications do shorter shakuhachi have?  And how short do you go?  Can they be made in the pole style as opposed to root end or do they not sound so good when you go short with a non root end piece of bamboo? 

And overall do you think it  is detrimental to a beginner's learning to be playing on different length flutes?  In other words, is it best to save one's flute length experimentation until when one's shakuhachi playing has matured?

thanks,
Erin

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#2 2008-12-18 12:59:53

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

airin wrote:

I recently asked about longer flutes and received a wealth of useful information.  I now have two earth style 2.4 flutes…yes, two, but that’s another story (one for my blog perhaps).  I really love the low tones of the 2.4, very tenor sax sounding at times.  I have found the different finger positioning quite natural.  After a good practice session on my 1.8 I often reward myself with some fool around time on the 2.4.  And it was with the 2.4 that I was first able to pinpoint my Kan notes more accurately than with the 1.8.

Are the holes inline or offset? I found after I got an inline longer flute that the alternate grip worked better with it than with flutes with offset holes. This is particularly true for the right hand, with the left hand I still prefer offset holes. It seems that with offset holes for the right hand the alternate grip is more difficult than with inline holes and with offset holes the "normal" end of the fingers grip is even worse. 

airin wrote:

I risk becoming a brash over indulged beginner as I turn my thoughts to shorter flutes now but really I can’t help wonder about them.  Tones are higher I am imagining.

The tones are higher by just 1 to several half-tones (depending on how short) and the audible difference is obvious, but I find the biggest difference is in the response and feel. They tend to respond a lot quicker and are more difficult to meri. It also is more difficult to get short low-end flutes that play well (or maybe I should say half-way decently, low end flutes probably shouldn't be expected to be all that great), the second octave is often out of tune and some don't even play all the way through the second octave.         

airin wrote:

When would you prefer a shorter flute over a longer one….certain shakuhachi pieces I would guess…but which ones and why?

For meditative blowing it would be just personal preference and for that purpose I don't like anything less than 1.7. I remember seeing other threads in shakuhachiforum that there are certain styles of Japanese music that require shorter lengths so the shakuhachi can be played in tune with other instruments in an ensemble setting. 

airin wrote:

What special applications do shorter shakuhachi have?  And how short do you go?  Can they be made in the pole style as opposed to root end or do they not sound so good when you go short with a non root end piece of bamboo?

The shortest I've seen sold here on shakuhachiforum is 1.3 that was root end, and it's easy to find 1.5 and 1.6's on Ebay, lot's of them are root-end. Most of the short Ebay flutes don't play well so I wouldn't even bother with those unless you can get a very low price or have some way of knowing it's a good playing one. I managed to get a pretty decent 1.6 non-root end on Ebay though, so even though it seems to be an exception to the rule, you can find OK non-root end short flutes there. BTW, I had a hunch it would be OK because not only was it stamped, but the holes and areas where the fingers fall between the holes were stained from being played. I had to repair the utaguchi though.   

airin wrote:

And overall do you think it  is detrimental to a beginner's learning to be playing on different length flutes?  In other words, is it best to save one's flute length experimentation until when one's shakuhachi playing has matured?

I think it was Chikuzen that mentioned in the "how to get kan" thread that he prescribed playing a 1.6 to help with getting into kan on a 1.8, so there is obviously at least one very knowledgeable teacher that thinks the experimentation, or maybe it would be better called cross-training or something, is good for students. I'd assume that since it's all shakuhachi there would be a lot of transference from skills learned on one length to other lengths. So even if it's just for fun there's no problem, and if it helps with the a 1.8 that's even better. I'd say it's a win-win experiment.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#3 2008-12-18 15:29:11

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Short flutes – what about them?

Short flutes are more difficult to make. It's not easy to get them in tune. And then playing them is also more difficult because tuning becomes more of an issue the higher you go in pitch. Also the embouchure is even tighter and more difficult to produce than on 1.8 or longer.

For all these reasons I like playing them. lol

It depends on what kind of player you want to be. Some people prefer to just play one flute, usually 1.8, and really get into the nuances of it. Other people think it's important to be adaptable and use many lengths and styles.

Musically speaking there are a lot of pieces written specifically for 1.6. And some minyo sounds good on short flutes.

Another factor is that you tend to play well what you get into as a beginner. A lot of people think 1.8 is the easiest, but that's not true. It's easiest for them because that's what they learned on. So you have to be careful what you do as a beginner because you'll tend to carry that on with you.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#4 2008-12-18 20:31:32

Michael A. Firman
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From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
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Re: Short flutes – what about them?

I really like playing shorter flutes. I have a 1.6 that has a great sound, particularly for minyo.
I just got a new (to me, but made some time ago actually) kinko 1.8 flute that I'm just trying to get used to.
It has some of the "normal" kinko quirks of the era in which it was made, like being a little touchy
on some of the notes in the far reaches of the upper register. I was talking with Michael Gould
about it and he suggested that I work with my 1.6 for a little while each day. What a brilliant idea!
After playing the 1.6 for a while, the new 1.8 plays like butter (this is meant to mean it plays easily).
So short flutes have many redeeming qualities.


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

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#5 2008-12-22 11:40:54

airin
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

What about going as short as 1.4?  There's lots of mention of 1.6 and even 1.5 but 1.4 seems not so common and I am wondering why.

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#6 2008-12-22 12:20:58

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

airin wrote:

What about going as short as 1.4?  There's lots of mention of 1.6 and even 1.5 but 1.4 seems not so common and I am wondering why.

I would guess that is because they are somewhat difficult to play (judging from my experience with 1.6 flutes).
The notes in the the upper register (such as hi and ii in Kan) on a 1.4 would be VERY difficult I suspect.
They are also just not that available (they are not commonly produced by makers). In sankyoku/shinkyoku
there is not a lot (if any) pieces written that call for 1.4s. Even in minyo they don't appear that much from what
I've observed.
They also may be "shunned" because (due to the shrillness) they might be considered not very aesthetic.


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

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#7 2008-12-22 12:25:55

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

airin wrote:

What about going as short as 1.4?  There's lots of mention of 1.6 and even 1.5 but 1.4 seems not so common and I am wondering why.

Probably because as Tairaku stated the shorter flutes are harder to make. If you're referring to the one put up for sale on the buy/sell section here on shakuhachiforum, I think the seller says that it plays through the 2nd octave. If that's the case and I was in the market for one I wouldn't hesitate because getting one that short from a Japanese antiques dealer on Ebay has a very high probability of being a disappointment and the only other option would probably be much more expensive. Maybe higher quality too, but a 1.4 that can play through 2 octaves reasonably in tune for $200 is a scarce item.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2008-12-22 12:27:21)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#8 2008-12-22 13:07:22

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

...tough to play, shrill, not much music,  hard to make, difficult to find at a good price....yup, its going to be hard to decide on this one guys.

I'm starting to lean towards holding out for a 1.6 rather than anything even shorter.

Last edited by airin (2008-12-22 14:04:44)

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#9 2008-12-22 14:46:27

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

airin wrote:

I'm starting to lean towards holding out for a 1.6 rather than anything even shorter.

1.6s (rokusuns) are rather nice. They don't usually sound shrill and there are quite a few pieces written for them
(notably, Haru no Umi). They are also rather fun to play once you get used to them. As I mentioned above, they
also seem to be good chop building tools.


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

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#10 2008-12-22 14:53:15

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

Michael A. Firman wrote:

airin wrote:

I'm starting to lean towards holding out for a 1.6 rather than anything even shorter.

1.6s (rokusuns) are rather nice. They don't usually sound shrill and there are quite a few pieces written for them
(notably, Haru no Umi). They are also rather fun to play once you get used to them. As I mentioned above, they
also seem to be good chop building tools.

Michael, what do you mean by 'chop building tools'?

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#11 2008-12-22 15:26:10

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

airin wrote:

Michael A. Firman wrote:

airin wrote:

I'm starting to lean towards holding out for a 1.6 rather than anything even shorter.

1.6s (rokusuns) are rather nice. They don't usually sound shrill and there are quite a few pieces written for them
(notably, Haru no Umi). They are also rather fun to play once you get used to them. As I mentioned above, they
also seem to be good chop building tools.

Michael, what do you mean by 'chop building tools'?

It's the hip musical language, man... chops are your skills and the instrument is your axe. It'll take some googling to figure out how that slang came about, but they're fairly well-used terms in the rock and jazz world.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#12 2008-12-22 15:59:08

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

Ah, got it now. 

I see I will need to build up my musical jargon....lol.

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#13 2008-12-22 17:26:57

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

radi0gnome wrote:

It's the hip musical language, man... chops are your skills and the instrument is your axe. It'll take some googling to figure out how that slang came about, but they're fairly well-used terms in the rock and jazz world.

I always thought that "polishing one's chops" came from the concept of "woodsheding". That being where
one takes their "axe" (instrument) off to the "woodshed" (alone by oneself) and works on ones "chops" (technique).


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

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#14 2008-12-22 17:44:19

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

Michael A. Firman wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

It's the hip musical language, man... chops are your skills and the instrument is your axe. It'll take some googling to figure out how that slang came about, but they're fairly well-used terms in the rock and jazz world.

I always thought that "polishing one's chops" came from the concept of "woodsheding". That being where
one takes their "axe" (instrument) off to the "woodshed" (alone by oneself) and works on ones "chops" (technique).

In Australia they do not know the expression "woodshedding" so I use it all the time to baffle them. lol

I tell them, "You need to go to the woodshed." and they say, "Why would I do that?"


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#15 2008-12-22 20:50:34

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Short flutes – what about them?

airin wrote:

What about going as short as 1.4?  There's lots of mention of 1.6 and even 1.5 but 1.4 seems not so common and I am wondering why.

1.0 and 1.3 have both been used traditionally in Kinko-ryu honkyoku to give accompanying higher parts. But as has been said, they are very hard to make well. At the Araki Chikuo remembrance party, Araki Kodo brought a 1.0 made by Chikuo, which is a really great instrument. Araki-sensei also has a superb 1.3, and told me it is really rare to find a 1.3 that plays so well. It has great playability but also great neiro, which is not common for modern 1.3s which if playable are often shrill and hard sounding. With his encouragement I have studied that instrument a lot and I can now make good 1.3s for anyone interested.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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