Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

#1 2009-01-01 13:41:27

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

I've been reading this forum now for some time and came across that western music and Japanese are different in pitch\tonal quality. My question is this: in what way? Is it the intervals of notes between the octaves? Does a proper played pentatonic scale on the shakuhachi sound different then when I play a pentatonic scale on a western instrument (sax)? by example When Ro = D on a 1.8 makes it a tsu-meri an excact  E?
I think most of the forumers are non-japanese and are much more exposed to western music. I have these questions 'cause I would like to play the shakuhachi the proper way in the proper pitch.

Bas.


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

Offline

 

#2 2009-01-01 14:36:36

Michael A. Firman
Member
From: Naperville, IL USA
Registered: 2006-08-28
Posts: 57
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Bas Nijenhuis wrote:

I've been reading this forum now for some time and came across that western music and Japanese are different in pitch\tonal quality. My question is this: in what way? Is it the intervals of notes between the octaves? Does a proper played pentatonic scale on the shakuhachi sound different then when I play a pentatonic scale on a western instrument (sax)? by example When Ro = D on a 1.8 makes it a tsu-meri an excact  E?
I think most of the forumers are non-japanese and are much more exposed to western music. I have these questions 'cause I would like to play the shakuhachi the proper way in the proper pitch.

Bas.

Bas,

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have observed a few things (I have played western woodwind instruments before I came to the shakuhachi). One thing is that all notes, for the most part, on a western instrument are played (one attempts to play them anyway) using the same timbrel qualities. i.e. all notes are supposed to sound the same (except for pitch). On a shakuhachi it is almost impossible to do this (meri notes for example have a distinct sound quality and it would be very hard to make a tsu meri sound the same as a chi for example). I'm sure this started out to be a "limitation" of the instrument and the way they were constructed, but over time the aesthetic has developed in such a way that these differences are now valued.

The experts, I'm sure have other items to add to this.


Michael A. Firman
Naperville IL USA

Offline

 

#3 2009-01-01 15:25:21

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Search words like "microtonal", "microtonality" and "quarter tones" on this forum and you'll probably find a lot of discussion on this.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#4 2009-01-01 16:59:33

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Ah, thanks, I'll just do that!
I searched using other words like western and tuning


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

Offline

 

#5 2009-01-01 18:04:39

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

The discussion is like Tairaku says and fine for the knowledge, for the hearing maybe it's a good thing to think about the fact that the western music since Bach's time uses a tempered (calculated) tone system, but the Eastern classical music never did. They kept using the pure tuning created by blowing overtones, which makes for our ears some semi tones (the meri's) to low. To get used to this difference, so you can correct yourself more easely, listen a lot to the performing of the old Japanese music by masters. It can also be helpfull (maybe easier to get in the music-library) to listen to the mediaeval singing, done in the original ways. In Europe done for example by Marius van Altena and Andrea Ram.


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

Offline

 

#6 2009-01-02 01:04:01

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Bas Nijenhuis wrote:

...by example When Ro = D on a 1.8 makes it a tsu-meri an excact  E?

Some very helpful members covered a similar topic for me recently which you can find below:

Grabbing all the right pitches...

If you're playing an in-key 1.8 (D), then Tsu meri should be a D#/Eb. An E would be a Tsu chu meri (which seems to be a rarely-used note).

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

Offline

 

#7 2009-01-02 01:17:57

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Zakarius wrote:

If you're playing an in-key 1.8 (D), then Tsu meri should be a D#/Eb. An E would be a Tsu chu meri (which seems to be a rarely-used note).

Zak

Yes, but.........................in a lot of music that tsu meri would be between Eb and D. The interval is less than a western half step. For traditional music that is.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#8 2009-01-03 06:36:46

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Hi Bas
Generally in traditional Japanese music, what on shakuhachi we call the meri notes, are more flat than their western (12 tone equal temperament) nearest equivalent notes. Dun, I don't think they come from overtones either. Indian music works on just intonation, as does choral music even in Europe today. That works well for harmony. But that is something different.

Different players play differently. Many shakuhachi players play the meri notes actually sharper than the Western equivalent, or even play it so sharp that it becomes nearer to the next equivalent note, such as playing tsu meri at the pitch of (or near to) tsu chu meri. What the pitch SHOULD be, in honkyoku, is debatable, or better to say variable, from lineage to lineage, or teacher to teacher. There is a tendency that if a teacher uses a low pitch, such as lower than the Western equivalent, most students will play with a higher pitch, due to the difficulty of technique. This sometimes results in a rising pitch from one generation to the next if those students become teachers. So even within one lineage things shift.

If you are talking about sankyoku, then the best way to judge the correct pitch is to chose the shamisen player whom you feel is authoritative, and measure the pitches they use. Since the shakuhachi is to accompany the shamisen (or koto - and these include voice), it should be in tune with that.

Generally my advice would be, play meri notes at about 25 cents below the Western equivalent note. For example, tsu meri at 75 cents above ro. If you do this successfully, it is unlikely that anyone will complain. You will be acceptably in tune for most traditional shakuhachi music. The main exception would be in certain honkyoku schools such as Meian Taizan-ha where they may use higher pitches.

Hope this all makes sense for you.

Justin Senryu
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2009-01-03 06:38:38)

Offline

 

#9 2009-01-03 12:01:58

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

wink don't dare to argue with you, Justin, and I agree with your meri advice, but please read: www.sacredscience.com/archive/HarmonicsScience.htm - 49k - 

Besides that can somebody tell me how much cents difference is a half tone, and how much a whole?


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

Offline

 

#10 2009-01-03 12:08:37

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Dun Romin wrote:

wink don't dare to argue with you, Justin, and I agree with your meri advice, but please read: www.sacredscience.com/archive/HarmonicsScience.htm - 49k - 

Besides that can somebody tell me how much cents difference is a half tone, and how much a whole?

Some useful reading on the subject:

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)

[located by Googling...wait for it...'cents in a halftone'...]

Last edited by edosan (2009-01-03 12:09:04)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#11 2009-01-03 13:01:49

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Thanks, Edosan, I always forget Wikipedia.


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

Offline

 

#12 2009-01-03 13:33:25

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Thanks for the elaborate information, so if I conclude; Japanese or (eastern music) differs alone in the meri notes and not in the main notes of the pentatonic scale. The pitch of meri is then mostly lower then western notes equivalents, but also that depends on player and type of music.


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

Offline

 

#13 2009-01-03 14:09:25

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Bas Nijenhuis wrote:

Thanks for the elaborate information, so if I conclude; Japanese or (eastern music) differs alone in the meri notes and not in the main notes of the pentatonic scale. The pitch of meri is then mostly lower then western notes equivalents, but also that depends on player and type of music.

Not really ('...differs alone in the meri notes and not in the main notes...'). Depending on the type of music (and its time frame), ALL notes in Japanese music can be more or less different than in western music, and the advent of western music in the late 19th century with its increasing popularity in Japan tended to push some Japanese music (and instruments) toward tempered western scales.

In Honkyoku, for example, quoting from Koga Masayuki-sensei's book:

     "Honyoku has seventy kinds of notes in each octave.

     "Before you play Honkyoku (classical pieces), you must know
     there are five kinds of distinct tones in each note. Then you must
     know the relationship among the notes. There are twelve semitones
     in each octave, therefore there are sixty kinds of notes in one octave...

     "Because of this complexity I don not teach Honkyoku to beginners." [whereupon he devotes several pages to details]

Furthermore, bear in mind that Japanese and western music spring from totally different 'mechanisms' (if you will). Western music
is almost all built around harmony, something that was essentially unknown in Japanese music until western music showed up. For it to
work properly, harmony demands consistency and stability in the notes that build trichords. If harmony ain't in the picture, the pitches
can go pretty much anywhere.

Last edited by edosan (2009-01-03 14:29:04)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#14 2009-01-03 14:11:18

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

fouw wrote:

May I take my hat off in respect for Edosan's saintly patience in pointing out, time after time, the existence of search functions and search engines......

Cheers,
K

Someday, in the far, far future, such functions may even be routinely used by members, assuming the internet still exists. smile


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#15 2009-01-03 16:09:25

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

edosan wrote:

If harmony ain't in the picture, the pitches
can go pretty much anywhere.

There is all kinds of great music to be made if one just keeps this in mind.

We in the west have become musical slaves. The Africans were enslaved but then turned around and enslaved us to their rhythms. Now the majority of people will not listen to music unless it has a simple and thumping beat. Likewise we are slaves to the piano and its successors (such as sequencers) which use mathematical principles rather than sound as a basis for intervals. Then even instruments like the shakuhachi which have the capability of infinite interval variation are boxed in by these stupid concepts by people who want it to sound like a piano. cool

Getting away from both harmony and rhythm brings you to a beautiful place musically and the honkyoku composers realized that a long time ago.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#16 2009-01-03 18:48:25

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Tairaku wrote:

edosan wrote:

If harmony ain't in the picture, the pitches
can go pretty much anywhere.

There is all kinds of great music to be made if one just keeps this in mind.

We in the west have become musical slaves. The Africans were enslaved but then turned around and enslaved us to their rhythms. Now the majority of people will not listen to music unless it has a simple and thumping beat. Likewise we are slaves to the piano and its successors (such as sequencers) which use mathematical principles rather than sound as a basis for intervals. Then even instruments like the shakuhachi which have the capability of infinite interval variation are boxed in by these stupid concepts by people who want it to sound like a piano. cool

Getting away from both harmony and rhythm brings you to a beautiful place musically and the honkyoku composers realized that a long time ago.

Great post! Bravo!!!

: {p


Omnia mea mecum porto

Offline

 

#17 2009-01-03 19:14:01

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Yes, western music seems rather pre-defined at the base of it, that's why I like jazz perhaps, it allows for more freedom and expression, maybe with shakuhachi even more! This seems also a bit contradictory perhaps to some of the strict Japanese ways the shaku is being teached (like right and wrong in some schools). Conclusion 2 could be: there is no right or wrong while playing the shakuhachi, just a matter op perspective (or better: an auditive matter).


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

Offline

 

#18 2009-01-03 20:37:53

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

I've been listening a little to those old lp recordings from a website that someone posted here. Cant think of the site or the post off the top of my head. It had old Myoan recordings, Ranpo, Fukuda, Nyodo, Chikuho, etc. Some of them play, to my ear, in tune, while others are all over the place. Same goes for modern recordings, which may be more influenced by the constant diet of 12TET in modern music. I understand that my sense of intonation lies where it is, and if something doesnt sound 'right' to my ear, then that doesnt mean its wrong. Where I get lost is when players appear to not have a consistent sense of pitch, which usually results in some casual intonation for meri notes.

The approach I am trying to take is to play with consistency. Playing honkyoku, for example, I've decided where I like my tsu meri in relation to ro. My tsu dai meri is, on a good day, identical in pitch to my ro. Tsudaimeri=ro is a kind of anchor point. When playing with a fixed pitch instrument that uses 12TET, I have to shift my intonation because my tsu meri is a bit flat. Koto may be tuned to a different system, and the bends can be adjusted, so that will require the shakuhachi player to adjust, though how much will depend on the koto player and/or the compromise they reach with the shakuhachi player. I think intonation also changes depending on the style, so intonation may vary for a contemporary shakuhachi piece, or for a shakuhachi ensemble.

Perhaps developing one or two intonation systems very strongly gives you a solid foundation and reference point from which you can change intonation and understand exactly where you are, and over time be able to change to any intonation required while retaining consistency. I think this ability to vary intonation on shakuhachi is an advantage, but difficult to surmount owing to the greater number of variables in comparison to other non fixed pitch instruments, such as violin. In short, consistency, flexibility, and adjustment.

Last edited by caffeind (2009-01-03 20:52:43)

Offline

 

#19 2009-01-03 20:52:15

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

This seems also a bit contradictory perhaps to some of the strict Japanese ways the shaku is being teached (like right and wrong in some schools). Conclusion 2 could be: there is no right or wrong while playing the shakuhachi, just a matter op perspective (or better: an auditive matter).

I have been playing music for many years and have come to this conclusion. One should not be afraid of working hard and struggling to learn discipline. Discipline is the basis of all (at least all that I have come across) traditional musics. When you say right and wrong, I do not view this in a negative way. Often westerners for some reason do not like discipline (this is a generalization of course and I do not intend to say that is your beliefs Bas Nijenhuis). Discipline and struggle is beautiful and is the way to push HIGHER! Especially if you can find a truly masterful teacher. If you truly submit to this person through trust and truly and sincerely try your hardest you will progress and learn things you would not have even imagined. I am sure we have all read the stories about Watazumidoso and other musicians (especially in the Indian tradition)  develop extreme discipline. One can not help but admire these musicians. One can say that they are no longer even musicians as one must discipline one's entire life. Then in my opinion the TRULY beautiful sounds can come through.

Even in the most so-called free music, free improv and free jazz for example, the musicians I have met work VERY hard at developing their sound and technique. Of course it depends on what you want to do with the shakuhachi. Noodling around is perfectly acceptable. But I feel that if you truly want to express yourself freely you must develop. In order to develop one must discipline oneself. This is also true with traditional shakuhachi music. First you play like your teacher; obviously there is a right and wrong. If there was not there is nothing to PUSH you to higher levels of control and intention. Truly beautiful music in my opinion comes when the player is lost and no longer "gets in the way" of the sound.

What does it mean to TRULY express oneself. Now that is an interesting question. I really like this quote from the great Bruce Lee:

Learn the principle, abide by the principle, and dissolve the principle. In short, enter a mold without being caged in it. Obey the principle without being bound by it. LEARN, MASTER AND ACHIEVE!!!

Knowledge in martial arts actually means self-knowledge. A martial artist has to take responsibility for himself and accept the consequences of his own doing. The understanding of JKD is through personal feeling from movement to movement in the mirror of the relationship and not through a process of isolation. To be is to be related. To isolate is death. To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. It has always been very easy for me to put on a show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and feel pretty cool and all that. I can make all kinds of phoney things. Blinded by it. Or I can show some really fancy movement. But to experience oneself honestly, not lying to oneself, and to express myself honestly, now that is very hard to do.



Struggle is Beautiful. There is nothing like the sound of a Coltrane or a Watazumidoso! You can literally hear the force. You can hear their strength. You can hear their struggle. AAHHHH the Beauty......

-Prem

Last edited by -Prem (2009-01-03 21:32:01)

Offline

 

#20 2009-01-04 01:45:14

shaman141
Member
From: Montreal, QC.
Registered: 2006-02-02
Posts: 154
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Thanks for the great post Prem!


Find your voice and express yourself, that's the point.

Offline

 

#21 2009-01-04 05:19:52

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

yes indeed great post! Thank you.
Discipline not only works for music to develop your skills (or yourself), but I believe in all aspects of life.
I played the sax and when I saw a pro play it, so effortlessly (apparantly) you feel the musician is not 'performing techniques', he/she is just making music and you can almost feel the huge amout of effort behind it... or struggle smile


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

Offline

 

#22 2009-01-04 05:30:56

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

caffeind wrote:

I've been listening a little to those old lp recordings from a website that someone posted here. Cant think of the site or the post off the top of my head. It had old Myoan recordings, Ranpo, Fukuda, Nyodo, Chikuho, etc. Some of them play, to my ear, in tune, while others are all over the place.

this is that topic and link in first post

http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=1029


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

Offline

 

#23 2009-02-02 07:51:30

ssakamoto
Member
From: Gujo Hachiman, Gifu-ken, Japan
Registered: 2009-02-01
Posts: 43
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Tairaku wrote:

edosan wrote:

If harmony ain't in the picture, the pitches
can go pretty much anywhere.

There is all kinds of great music to be made if one just keeps this in mind.

We in the west have become musical slaves. The Africans were enslaved but then turned around and enslaved us to their rhythms. Now the majority of people will not listen to music unless it has a simple and thumping beat. Likewise we are slaves to the piano and its successors (such as sequencers) which use mathematical principles rather than sound as a basis for intervals. Then even instruments like the shakuhachi which have the capability of infinite interval variation are boxed in by these stupid concepts by people who want it to sound like a piano. cool

Getting away from both harmony and rhythm brings you to a beautiful place musically and the honkyoku composers realized that a long time ago.

I'm very new to the shakuhachi, and I have no musical background. I'm taking it a day at a time, and slowly trying to learn what all these terms are...notes, register, scale, tempo...basically I just practice what my teacher tells me every day and do my best. I read this forum and I find it fascinating...but when I read a post like this, it's like there's a tiny peek into a world that's beyond my reckoning. In other words, you just blew my mind. Thanks.


"One thing the bamboo tells you from the start is that it's going to take years and years and years. Better get to work." -- Mujitsu

Offline

 

#24 2009-02-02 07:57:17

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

Tairaku wrote:

There is all kinds of great music to be made if one just keeps this in mind.

We in the west have become musical slaves. The Africans were enslaved but then turned around and enslaved us to their rhythms. Now the majority of people will not listen to music unless it has a simple and thumping beat. Likewise we are slaves to the piano and its successors (such as sequencers) which use mathematical principles rather than sound as a basis for intervals. Then even instruments like the shakuhachi which have the capability of infinite interval variation are boxed in by these stupid concepts by people who want it to sound like a piano. cool

Getting away from both harmony and rhythm brings you to a beautiful place musically and the honkyoku composers realized that a long time ago.

Thank You for that post.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#25 2009-02-03 15:56:55

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Western vs Japanese tuning\pitch and music

In one of the classes at the 2008 Sydney Shakuhachi Camp one of the Japanese tutors commented on the"Japanese Sound". My recollection is not totally clear but is something like this.......

"The Japanese like a dark sound, and this is noted when playing ascending notes the 'whole note' is played but when descending the meri notes are introduced".

An interesting exploration.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google