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#26 2009-04-08 10:08:43

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

If you play a song with a million notes in it.....  each note is relatively unimportant.

but

If you play a song with ONE note....  that note is EVERYTHING.

The fact that the Shakuhachi has only 5 holes greatly magnifies the importance of each note.  It's deceptive.

Simple, does NOT mean easy.


I've always had a little chuckle at the fact that beginners are always the ones who say "I don't need lessons"
While the pros realize how much there is to learn and many still take lessons.

Yet another shakuhachi paradox.   go figure.

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#27 2009-04-08 10:40:22

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

jaybeemusic wrote:

Shakuhachi is the 1st and only instrument i've ever taken lessons with.   Why?  Because with all of my experience with other instruments, i realize that the shakuhachi is capable of doing sooooo many things in different ways that (to the UNTRAINED ear) sound exactly the same.

Wouldn't part of the reason for most people to absolutely need a teacher for shakuhachi be that unlike most band instruments there isn't a community of players to jam with who can give them some direction? I know that in many jam/rehearsal settings for pop/jazz/folk music there's quite a bit of informal teaching going on.

I feel that I'm somewhat able to get away without resorting to a teacher for basic tone production due to experience with other flutes, however even with that I made sure I got a lesson after a few months just as a reality check that I was doing things correctly and what other things I could practice in the realm of basic tone production, like meri's, that doesn't exist as a silver flute technique. To learn any music beyond some of the simple things in beginner books I think I'll definitely need a teacher.

Another factor in the greater need for a teacher with shakuhachi than with other instruments is that the music for it is from a different culture. I know a lot of people will insist that they absolutley love and could relate to Japanese music on their first listening, but I honestly don't see how anyone could relate as well as someone raised in the culture. That's one reason I like the idea of Japanese children's folk songs in the beginners teaching books, I've got a lot of catching up to do.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#28 2009-04-08 10:57:44

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

Lance wrote:

One day I may take lessons, but for now I dislike the thought.

I've seen too many people who spend YEARS and YEARS taking lessons on an instrument only to become robots who can only repeat the songs they've learned or when supposedly 'improvising' simply cutting and pasteing phrases together they have memorized... I HATE that result of lessons. With that negative background I just have no passion in the prospect of spending hundreds/thousands of hours learning songs...

Anybody else feel like that, or what are your reasons for not taking lessons???

This isn't a post about why we should take lessons, but a teachers prospective on this topic might be useful.

I guess it all depends on what you are looking for, but it sounds to me like you have a very solid case going for not working too hard at this which is fine. Like I say, it all depends on what you are looking for. Did you seriously expect a teacher to give you reasons not to take lessons?  While you may have noticed some students who took a lot of lessons with minimal results you seem to have ignored all the truly fantastic players you've probably heard who took many lessons for many years. If you really would like to learn how to play you will have to step out of your comfort zone teacher or no. But that is not for everybody and if your enjoying what your doing I say "play on".
                                        All the best
                                            Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#29 2009-04-08 11:19:55

Vevolis
Member
From: Toronto, ON
Registered: 2007-12-24
Posts: 175
Website

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

People used to ask me "did I take lessons" when I played the piano. I used to proudly reply "no". Then there were things I wanted to do that I couldn't, that I can't. I hit a wall. Self esteem plummited. There are non-robotic idea's in my head that can't be expressed properly because I am not proficient enough to reproduce them. I'd have to trudge through midi sequencing to "write" anything anymore, let alone play.

Shakuhachi is not midi compatible.

I'd highly recommend lessons. If you're creative or crafty, you'll make good use of your knowledge base. A good chef knows how to prepare a mushroom dish. He doesn't neccessarily have to like mushrooms.

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#30 2009-04-08 11:29:43

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

If you think being self taught is so wonderful.....

Next time you need a doctor or a lawyer......insist on one who is self-taught!!!

lol

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#31 2009-04-08 11:50:52

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

lowonthetotem wrote:

I feel that that I have enough experience playing flute (silver, baroque and Irish) that I can learn a decent amount on my own. While there are a multitude of good things I could learn from a teacher, most of them I won't be able to put to good use until I can get nice clear tones with several different kinds of attacks, decays, and dynamics each and every time I attempt to play them. That pretty much just takes practice (depending on an individual's experience) and I'm not there yet.

It seems to me that this illustrates a similar misconception to Lance's, which is that teachers just teach songs.

That was a quote I made. Let me clarify that I wasn't suggesting that all teachers teach is songs. Maybe some do, it's probably the easiest thing to teach. I've noticed with other instruments that often the lesser-skilled local teachers will mostly teach repertiore and skimp on technique. Then it's in master classes where you end up learning technique and wonder why you couldn't have been blessed with living in a major city with access to the good teachers. Sense shakuhachi isn't all that popular here in the West I wouldn't be surprised if there were a higher percentage of good teachers than with other instruments.

What I was suggesting is that I think I have enough to work on to keep me occupied for quite some time until I do make the leap into taking lessons.   

lowonthetotem wrote:

It is rather arrogant to assume we would know better than a few centuries of shakuhachi tradition.

I'm fairly certain there are some teachers here on this forum that don't really like traditional teaching methods. Maybe the traditional teaching methods work fine for Japanese culture, sitting in front of the teacher and imitating everything they do. Westerners tend to like their learning to be a bit more analytical, possibly because it works better for them or maybe just because that's what they're used to.

Either way, in my mind good flute playing is good flute playing. There may be many specific techniques that don't transfer well from one flute to the other, but the essense of a beautiful tone is the same for each instrument.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#32 2009-04-08 12:05:44

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

jaybeemusic wrote:

If you think being self taught is so wonderful.....

Next time you need a doctor or a lawyer......insist on one who is self-taught!!!

lol

jacques

I think I'd want one that has been in practice for a while too. The self-teaching part is important too, that's why internships exist and experience is a good thing to have.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#33 2009-04-08 13:30:51

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

I'm fairly certain there are some teachers here on this forum that don't really like traditional teaching methods.

This is a misunderstanding of what I meant, which probably arose from my use of the word "arrogant."  I should be more careful.  I am not talking about anyone's teaching technique.  That indeed would be something subject to personal taste, and you may have to go through a couple teachers before you get one that you feel you can work the best with.  However, there is a traditional ranking system, and as a beginner, I would feel much better being with a teacher that had this kind of tradition recognition.  As I said, being a beginner, I don't feel qualified to assess anyone's abilities very accurately.  It is kind of like what Jaybee said.  If I go to a Doctor, I want to see a certificate and license on the wall.  These days it may be more difficult because anyone can put up a web page and say, "Hey I am a great shakuhachi player. Take lessons from me."  Titles like Shihan and Dai Shihan are a little more difficult to fake with some modicum of credibility.  And, along the web-page line, there are several teachers giving internet lessons (hardly traditional), so distance is less of an issue than it ever has been.  I take internet lessons solely (except for one camp), and cannot say enough about how it has helped me improve.

Now, I am not saying that there aren't great teachers out there who are really gifted but don't have these titles.  Ironically though, they may be more suited for more advanced players who can more easily assess what they have to offer and of what use that offering can be.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#34 2009-04-08 14:05:37

Lance
Member
Registered: 2008-01-18
Posts: 74

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

Well, as I suspected...  this has just become a "Teacher vs. no teacher" topic, which has already been done.

I'll seach for that topic and put up a link so that you can continue 'that' disscussion.

As for much of the comments, duh. Of course a teacher can teach you many things, many that you probably could not have found on your own, in a single lifetime.

I will probably try some time with a teacher one day....  but I'll bet he/she will have a song or two in mind for me to practice, then another more complex song, then another, and then another..    to illustrate what I don't want to become, answer this honestly:

If I asked most of you to play 'something' for me, what would you play?      I'll bet you'd be searching your brain for one of the songs you've learned, and you'd play that for me... again, you might 'interpret' it your way, but you'd be doing what I find repugnant, for me, although I do LOVE hearing others do it.

Hopefully that made sense, because that is the essence of this topic...

I'd be a bad student, since I'd want the teacher to help me make notes and sounds I can't make, learning those new techniques, but would not want to learn the other formal things the teacher is most likely to suggest.


“The firefly is a good lesson in light, and darkness”

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#35 2009-04-08 15:04:58

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

Lance wrote:

If I asked most of you to play 'something' for me, what would you play?

I'd play you a 'song' that would knock your fucking socks off.

You really haven't a clue what you're talking about, having never been anywhere near it.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#36 2009-04-08 15:05:15

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

Hi Lance,

First off i want to apologize for hijacking the thread and changing the focus of the discussion.

But just so i understand you correctly....

You like a traditional instrument, and the traditional sounds it makes.  And you listen to music by people who (I assume) have had a ton of
traditional shakuhachi education....(ie...lessons)   

and you wanna just randomly "noodle around" making stuff up?   My only question is.....why?

that would be like buying all the supplies to do japanese calligraphy and just sitting there painting "stick figures"  and random lines on a page...
what's the point?

if it makes you happy.....sure i'm all for it.

but personally i feel like you're missing out on a wonderful world of experience.  Never mind the fact that all of the people/teachers on here are
really nice/cool people.

don't shut the door on something that you haven't even tried yet.  that's all i'm saying.

Jacques

peace and happy blowing

Last edited by jaybeemusic (2009-04-08 15:07:58)


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#37 2009-04-08 15:13:28

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: How many of us don't take lessons, and why?

Forum members,

Over the last few months, some of "Lance's" posts have been removed because they were inappropriate for the forum. Unfortunately, this member is often more interested in creating problems rather than contributing.

Trolling is the act of trailing a bait, hoping that a fish will bite. The Internet troll is interested in frustrating others and creating a response more than the issue being discussed. Trolls create the illusion of power for themselves by manipulating others.

The best way to handle a troll is not to take the bait.

PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.

Thanks everyone.

Ken

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