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  •  » To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

#76 2009-05-02 04:47:22

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Bruce Hunter wrote:

"I was my own teacher and pupil, and thanks to the efforts of both, they were not discontented with each other."

---Andres Segovia

Good quote.

I had the opportunity to interact with Segovia and the encounter left him seriously bummed out.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#77 2009-05-02 05:38:25

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Tairaku wrote:

I had the opportunity to interact with Segovia and the encounter left him seriously bummed out.

Ahhh!  So it was you.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#78 2009-05-02 10:38:13

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Referring to Brian’s earlier missive, of course, we all know that the jinashi section doesn't exist to make blanket statements about jinashi being better than flutes with ji, even though it is certainly common knowledge that some people believe this to be true. A few even actively promote the idea!?!

Many on this forum, including Bas and me, have trouble with blanket statements, even when coming from as respected an authority as Yokoyama. My first post to this discussion was basically saying, “Be careful with blanket statements, whether by Yokoyama or anyone else”.

Nevertheless, such blanket statements can be found throughout this forum. One example could be Brian's recent statement re: longer flutes made with ji being “too thin”, though I think Brian was implying, “...in my opinion, based on my personal and therefore by definition, limited experience”.

Another example of blanket statements is of course, Yokoyama's quote that jinashi flutes, as he defines that term, are the best flutes for "the classics", but should never be used for any other genre of music. From this quote, no doubt Yokoyama would include rock, jazz, blues, etc, in his list of music that should never be played on a jinashi flute, as he defines that term.

So, whom should I believe, Brian Ritchie or Katsuya Yokoyama? That’s the point. I don’t have to embrace either Yokoyama’s or Brian's opinion. Or rather, I can embrace them both. If I allow these two contradictions to sit comfortably in the confusion of my mind, and if I keep that confused mind open, I can use both, together with my own limited experience, to form eventually my own opinion.

Speaking of blanket statements, what about the one implied by the set of definitions in the ‘sticky’ at the beginning of this section?  Those definitions appear to advocate or take for granted the blanket statement that a flute with only a few small dabs of ji is intrinsically inferior to, or at least so different from a flute that has no ji at all, as to warrant a completely separate definition or name.

Brian, when using the term, ‘jinashi’ in your previous post, were you using the very clear definition given in the introductory "sticky" to the jinashi section?

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#79 2009-05-02 12:54:49

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Riley wrote:

Another example of blanket statements is of course, Yokoyama's quote that jinashi flutes, as he defines that term, are the best flutes for "the classics", but should never be used for any other genre of music. From this quote, no doubt Yokoyama would include rock, jazz, blues, etc, in his list of music that should never be played on a jinashi flute, as he defines that term.

.
   What kind of flute did Yokoyama use mostly to play honkyoku, jinashi or jiari? My experiences with him (hearing him play in lessons and hearing many concerts) found him using jiari a great deal of the time. I thought some of his longer flutes were jimori but most were quite heavy.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#80 2009-05-02 14:51:20

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

As was stated before some say A and then does B, like saying honkyoku are best played without vibrato and then play the piece themselves with extensive vibrato. Maybe its like saying: 'its not healthy to eat pizza, you should better limit yourself eating it, and then eat it'. Well the last doesn't confuse me, that's the way people are I guess.
It is more when it is worded like a dogma; By example: I believe -as Chikuzen said- that to have lessons with a teacher for this flute is better (for me!). So this is rather personal, but probalby also an opinion shared with a large section of the posters here. But I believe it is not 'better' for all here. Some simply don't want lessons.


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#81 2009-05-02 17:48:17

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Riley Lee wrote:

So, whom should I believe, Brian Ritchie or Katsuya Yokoyama? That’s the point. I don’t have to embrace either Yokoyama’s or Brian's opinion. Or rather, I can embrace them both. If I allow these two contradictions to sit comfortably in the confusion of my mind, and if I keep that confused mind open, I can use both, together with my own limited experience, to form eventually my own opinion.

Speaking of blanket statements, what about the one implied by the set of definitions in the ‘sticky’ at the beginning of this section?  Those definitions appear to advocate or take for granted the blanket statement that a flute with only a few small dabs of ji is intrinsically inferior to, or at least so different from a flute that has no ji at all, as to warrant a completely separate definition or name.

Brian, when using the term, ‘jinashi’ in your previous post, were you using the very clear definition given in the introductory "sticky" to the jinashi section?

Good point Riley. With god like precision and alacrity I have now changed the title of this forum to "Ji-nashi and Ji-mori".

My personal opinion is that jinashi and jimori shakuhachi are more closely related to each other than jiari are to jimori or jinashi. I think jinashi and jimori are different enough to warrant separate words (the fact that the words exist proves itself), and the makers I talk to do differentiate between the two in their making philosophy. As a player, I don't care. I use them based on the sound and overall quality of the instrument. In many cases I am not even sure whether some of my flutes are jinashi or jimori. It's easy to tell which are jiari!

And of course if you read my earlier post I clearly state "to me" about my opinion of thin jiari long flutes. When I posted Yokoyama's comments I didn't intend them as "proof" of a "fact" regarding the suitability of jinashi for whatever purpose. I presented it as an interesting opinion. I don't think anybody's opinion about any shakuhachi matter constitutes a fact. We are all (from Yokoyama to whoever) just on a quest to find the music (and flutes, if we care about that) which suit us.

For the record I use jiari, jimori and jinashi for all kinds of music. I just like shakuhachi.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#82 2009-05-03 12:24:43

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Brian, I had to laugh after reading your post, mostly at myself.

Here I was, trying to express my opinion that the term, "jimori" is arbitrary, biased and unnecessary. It is a term that, in my nearly four decades of immersion in the shakuhachi tradition in and out of Japan, I had never come across until reading it on this forum.

The term really bothers me, as it is such an artificial delineation. Yes, the difference means something to makers, mainly because not having the option to use even the tiniest dabs of ji has in nearly every case, two effects: either the flute doesn't reach its full potential (file out just a tad more of the bore and the flute will become even better), or the flute is bored out too much, past it's optimum dimension, no longer at its best.

Jinashi flutes that don't fit into those two categories are left to chance, which is an interesting and possibly desirable concept, since so much of the shakuhachi sound is up to the player. But then, since that's the case, the logic behind the totally jinashi flute would dictate that the 'true jinashi player' should be able to make good sounds on any flute, even crude ones AND even flutes chockerblock full of ji.

The only thing that totally jinashi flutes have going for them is what I believe Yokoyama is on about with his 'crude flutes', which is a philosophical stance and little to do with music. [BTW, in response to Michael, I have never heard or seen Yokoyama play on one of his 'crude' flutes, a totally jinashi one. No doubt, he did, but not in my experience.]

Watazumi, for example is famous for upsetting a concert promoter for doing on stage, a martial arts routine with his poles instead of playing music. When the understandably upset promoter confronted Watazumi, saying that the latter was paid to play shakuhachi, not to do stick fighting, Watazumi replied by saying something like, "What's your problem mate; they are one and the same thing." Watazumi was right on one level - a supremely profound level, but he wasn't playing music. The promoter should have thrown him out of the concert hall quick smart.

And you say that you don't even know which of your flutes you consider jinashi - that is, the ones that have the sound that you (and I) like - are truly jinashi or not. If we can't hear, and usually can't even see the difference, why make the distinction, unless, of course we aren't talking about music, but something else, such as spiritual practice? Makers can please themselves, so long as they continue to make us the flutes that help us make the sound we are after.

The main reason I find the term 'jimori' distasteful is the implication behind its use, which is that jinashi flutes that do have the smallest amount of ji, which make them really sing, are inferior to totally, absolutely jinashi flutes. It's too black and white for me. Life is not black and white; it's all grey. A black and white mentality is less confusing, but is so problematic and divisive. As you say, we can for the most part, immediately tell the difference between a 'jinashi' flute (with or without a little ji) and the flutes full of ji from top to bottom.

But there is everything in between. All the shades of grey. I'm with you mate, all kinds of flutes for all kinds of music. I just like shakuhachi.

And then I read that your immediate and god-like response to my question to you is to do what is probably the most effective way to promote the bloody term "jimori"! How ironic! That will teach me not to try to be so clever with words!! One can only laugh. And perhaps, ask you to reverse your decision with equal god-like precision and alacrity. Please?    :-)

.......................

Bas, I had never in my wildest dreams, imagined that there would ever be anyone who simply doesn't want lessons, given the option of having them or not. But, of course as you point out, surely they are out there, and they have my best wishes. As the old Yorkshire saying goes, "dere's naught so queer as folk" (meaning: there is nothing as strange as what people do and think).

I suppose that theoretically it is possible for someone totally self taught, without even the 'teacher' of recordings or the live performances of others, to reinvent the wheel and become a good musician on the shakuhachi (I'm not talking about spiritual practice, Zen etc). But other than that theoretical person, whom I don't think exists, I still believe that if a teacher is around, anyone who wants to make music on one's shakuhachi will make better music by learning from that teacher.

For that matter, I would suggest that anyone interested solely in a meditative/spiritual aspect, with or without a bamboo flute, would still do better to have a teacher. This is my opinion, of course, but one shared by all the great masters of all spiritual traditions, in my limited experience/knowledge.

Probably most teachers would be grateful not to have to try to teach anyone who simply doesn't want lessons, so it works out best for everyone.

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#83 2009-05-03 15:14:28

vol
Member
Registered: 2006-11-20
Posts: 5

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

banjoforum!!???

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#84 2009-05-03 17:14:54

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

entertainment |ɛntəˌteɪnm(ə)nt|

noun

the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment; pleasure, leisure, recreation, relaxation, fun, interest, diversion

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#85 2009-05-03 17:55:47

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Go back to post #24 in this thread:

Tairaku wrote:

And Kiku has informed me there is a Japanese word for "semi-jinashi" which is "ji mori" and wishes we would start using it around here!

Looks like it wasn't Brian's idea...


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#86 2009-05-03 18:13:46

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Riley, I agree with your statements about wanting lessons wholeheartedly. On another thread there were several who don't want to be taught by a teacher. Most likely they will practise, play and listen to shakuhachi music. So invnenting the wheel completely again is not probable.

and maybe we should call jiari 'jiari' those are easily categorized and the rest ajiari (like typical atypical) wink


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#87 2009-05-03 18:36:18

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Riley Lee wrote:

The main reason I find the term 'jimori' distasteful is the implication behind its use, which is that jinashi flutes that do have the smallest amount of ji, which make them really sing, are inferior to totally, absolutely jinashi flutes. It's too black and white for me. Life is not black and white; it's all grey. A black and white mentality is less confusing, but is so problematic and divisive. As you say, we can for the most part, immediately tell the difference between a 'jinashi' flute (with or without a little ji) and the flutes full of ji from top to bottom.

But there is everything in between. All the shades of grey. I'm with you mate, all kinds of flutes for all kinds of music. I just like shakuhachi.

And then I read that your immediate and god-like response to my question to you is to do what is probably the most effective way to promote the bloody term "jimori"! How ironic! That will teach me not to try to be so clever with words!! One can only laugh. And perhaps, ask you to reverse your decision with equal god-like precision and alacrity. Please?    :-)

I was using the term "semi-jinashi" to describe these things and then Kiku said there is a Japanese word "jimori". I assume people like Simura also use this term? Maybe not.

I don't know if anybody said putting a few dabs of ji in a flute is inferior. I know Ken, Shugetsu, Neptune and many other people use this method.

Kiku used a Taimu in her recent concert, which probably had a few dabs. Kiku does that make any difference to you other than as a point of classification or nomenclature?

Sure there are fundamentalists who would shun even a few dabs.

Nowadays everyone uses power tools to make shakuhachi. I wonder if there are any people who care about that as a matter of principle? Does anybody know exactly what kind of tools were used in the past? Does that make any difference in the quality of the flutes?

Slippery slopes!

OK Riley, I will change the name of the forum back to "Jinashi".


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#88 2009-05-04 00:55:01

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

I would take things a step further and say that it is impossible not to be taught by a teacher. cool
Bas, if we were to adopt the term 'ajiari' we would have to put it into kanji for correct definition (which doesn't exist with that pronunciation) because without definitives like kanji, ajiari could mean 'with taste' lol .  Perhaps that would be applicable.

Last edited by Jeff Cairns (2009-05-04 00:58:00)


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#89 2009-05-04 04:47:56

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

I apologise beforehand for the size of this post. Long posts are no fun...

Riley Lee wrote:

The main reason I find the term 'jimori' distasteful is the implication behind its use, which is that jinashi flutes that do have the smallest amount of ji, which make them really sing, are inferior to totally, absolutely jinashi flutes. It's too black and white for me. Life is not black and white; it's all grey. A black and white mentality is less confusing, but is so problematic and divisive. As you say, we can for the most part, immediately tell the difference between a 'jinashi' flute (with or without a little ji) and the flutes full of ji from top to bottom.

Riley, I do not wish and have no time to get into a discussion about terms that you like or dislike, so I try to explain a few things here.
Let me just point out to you that there are absolutely no what-so-ever implication in the post made as a sticky that jimori is inferior. That is your interpretation and solely yours. I just can't see why a jimori is inferior to jinashi? Or to a jinuri for that sake...

Not many of us have 40 years experience of shakuhachi playing like you. I, myself, am 20 years behind you as I began playing shakuhachi in 1988 - and I will always have played 20 years less than you. However, the reason for you might not have heard the term jimori is perhaps because you don't have your finger on the pulse in regard of shakuhachi research in Japan any longer. I overheard Simura Satosi, Tukitani Tuneko using this term and were in conversations with Tokumaru Yoshihiko and Yamaguti Osamu where it was mentioned.
I hope you have read the thread here on the forum about the opening of a jinashi shakuhachi museum in Osaka. Of course Simura is the person behind this museum. This also measn it is not just some lunatic that has opened a little lousy museum. Ironically, it is less than 10 days ago Simura emailed me to have the first contact about the creation of a 'jinashi shakuhachi kenkyu-kai' (as he said; the old shakuhachi kenkyukai no longer exists).
Thus research and interest for jinashi shakuhachi is there whether others want it or not. There is one more researcher in the US who has Bruno Nettle as his supervisor, who is doing research on jinashi shakuhachi.
In comparison with when I began playing jinashi shakuhachi in 1988, the interest has grown tremendously.

The reason for I posted the terms where the word 'jimori' is mentioned is that I already saw a tendency of people making a distinction between jinashi and jimori - also among makers (here I speak about non-Japanese players and makers). There were  more and more a tendency of believing that hotchiku was the shakuhachi without ji at all, and jinashi was shakuhachi that had been spot-tuned. Instead of making a distinction understood solely by non-Japanese, I then came with the NEW word that I had heard the Japanese researchers and a few makers use. What I thought was brilliant about the word jimori is that Japanese people understood it - also when heard first time. No-one used this word as inferior to jinashi. And if I hadn't come with the word jimori, would jinashi have been inferior to hotchiku? Who knows? It all depends how we read and understand words and how emotional we react, I guess.

Also to Bas and to others. The people behind the jinashi forum are, naturally, jinashi aficionados. We therefore talk about jinashi with enthusiasm. I have never seen anybody saying they were better, superior or anything like this. We talk about our love for jinashi shakuhachi, our experiences with jinashi - and most importantly: the sound they produce.
Most of us have been through periods where we have been very fascinated by long flutes. This does not mean short flutes are inferior. It is not that when I for example write that I began playign shakuhachi on a 2.3 or the longest I can play is 3.2 - that I am insinuating anything shorter is inferior. The liking of long and short flutes are not mutually exclusive - just because we may write that we love the deep resonance of long jinashi - it is not the same as writing a 1.8 is crap. I am personally still waiting for my 1.3 that Murai is making. And 1.8 is the only length I have several of (no - that is not quite true - but almost).

Jinashi is more Zen? I think about 5-6 years ago or when Jay Keister did his jinashi interviews through the shakuhachi list, there were some people who said something like that. I have also interviewed people saying something similar - but that is also a long time ago. The most active jinashi advocates here on the forum, Tairaku and myself - none of us are Zen freaks, none of us came to the shakuhachi through Zen, none of us do Zen (Brian correct me if I am wrong). So, none of us advocate that jinashi is more Zen. Do let me know if anybody insists that jinashi is more Zen because I think that would, in fact, harm the reputation of jinashi shakuhachi today and I would probably write against that! Jinashi shakuhachi is a musical instrument today - but as with all other instruments, people can use it for what-ever purpose they wish to.

I posted the 'badly translated' Tokumaru interview of Yokoyama after Brian put parts of it up because I found it interesting what Yokoyama is quoted saying. His opinions do not even move my opinions about shakuhachi 1/100 of a millimeter. I first of all think it is interesting that he says so and does something else. Just because Yokoyama says a crude shakuhachi is best - I don't take his words as my law. My jinashi shakuhachi are not crudely made anyway... The interview is public, it is publicised in a journal. You can find it in libraries and can be bought through Monty. The post was not put up as the ultimate truth of the superiority of jinashi in playing honkyoku (I don't even agree with it). But I think it is interesting that a person so linked with a modern sound of shakuhachi 'said' that.

Remember we all are here because we 'just like shakuhachi'


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#90 2009-05-04 05:05:52

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Tairaku wrote:

I don't know if anybody said putting a few dabs of ji in a flute is inferior. I know Ken, Shugetsu, Neptune and many other people use this method.

Kiku used a Taimu in her recent concert, which probably had a few dabs. Kiku does that make any difference to you other than as a point of classification or nomenclature?

If it made any difference? Nope! I haven't even asked Ken whether this is a jimori or jinashi - not even asked myself that question. I simply don't care. The fact that it is a wonderful taimu doesn't change with some ji in it.

However, for classification when selling shakuhachi and for communicating I think knowing what words mean and using the same terms would be practical. Imagine a situation where a non-Japanese tell a Japanese person that this is not a jinashi, but a hotchiku because there is no ji in it... sigh!

I have never heard either that 'a few daps of ji' should make a shakuhachi inferior.... A new thought to me, I must say.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#91 2009-05-04 06:37:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Kiku Day wrote:

However, for classification when selling shakuhachi and for communicating I think knowing what words mean and using the same terms would be practical.

Yeah I started saying "semi-jinashi" when I was selling flutes so that people knew what they were getting. Mejiro also says "semi-jinashi" of some flutes, wonder what they say on their Japanese page?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#92 2009-05-04 06:56:25

Bas Nijenhuis
Member
From: Groningen, the Netherlands
Registered: 2008-10-30
Posts: 160
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Thank you Kiku, your post is long, but fun for me to read and quite clear. And this discussing about terms actually I like that too, it makes you wonder and think about the differences (and sameness) of flutes, but one (-or I-) may forget it is indeed about sound (instead of ji). So the terms phrased here are mostly for categorizing and state someting about how the flute was made (and maybe some about the expected tone).


Read more about my shakuhachi adventures at:
Bas' Shakuhachi Blog!

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#93 2009-05-04 07:01:46

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Based on a critical reading of this discussion: It looks like the contention is over strong statements that seem to imply jinashi is a difference in kind (of shakuhachi) rather than degree (of fine tuning) and that one is superior/inferior to the other objectively, outside the parameters of personal preference - which I don't think anyone here is really saying.

Just about any statement that asserts a subjective personal value-judgment as an objective interpersonal fact is going to fall face down, regardless of the subject matter. "De gustibus non est disputandum" = Literally, matters of taste are not debatable. Discuss-able, but not debate-able.

If "authorities" such as Yokoyama, Watazumi, or whoever, make the same mistake there is no more reason to take their value-statments as interpersonal fact without warrant any more than you would if Einstein said Mahler was better than Wagner, the Jetsons better than the Flintstones, Telecaster better than Stratocaster, or jiari better than jinashi.

Why would a purely technical descriptive term - especially one that emerged from authentic shakuhachi makers, teachers, and players - such as "jimori" be objectionable? Even if it were entirely new and coined among the professional makers, teachers, and players here on this forum for the first time it would still be a legitimate term because it actually describes something that is not arbitrary or so abstract as to be irrelevant - a difference of degree and method in fine-tuning an instrument.

Whether or not something is "Zen" is arbitrary and abstract enough to be irrelevant.

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2009-05-04 07:18:42)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#94 2009-05-04 09:56:47

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Hey Brian,
  Mejiro actually calls it semi-jinashi in English and "Jinashi-fuu no neiro" in Japanese, which is like saying it has a tone color similar to jinashi. 
Shimura and others are using the term jimori now but as Kiku mentioned, it may be more of a newer thing and the terminology they are actually making efforts to spread. But in some circles people hate the term jiari and prefer jinuri instead. To each his own on that one.
I use both jinashi ans jimori terms depending on whom I'm talking too. Too many players the term jinashi is suffice. To save myself a long, pointless, boring debate with some of the jinashi extremists here in Japan I just call some of my flutes jimori, they think I'm part of the "new wave" or something, and we both go about our business peacefully smile
Oh, and the Flintsones destroy the Jetsons.. I'm pretty sure that's a fact wink

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#95 2009-05-04 10:42:31

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

yeah....the Flintstones ROCK!!!           (did i really just say that?)

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#96 2009-05-04 11:33:01

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

So. When are we gonna get rolling with the ji-mori thread?

Can't wait!


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#97 2009-05-04 11:39:13

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

I only heard Kinya use three terms - Hocchiku, Jinashi and Jiari. He referred to the shakuhachi by these terms. He never made a fuss about the differences and certainly understood how to highlight the qualities associated with each (or the individual flute) while playing. According to Kinya, Hocchiku has nothing done to it other than holes drilled, nodes removed and utaguchi angles cut. Of course things were done with the Japanese sensibility towards crafting. Nothing was crude. Jinashi, has at least urushi lacquer to coat the bore but can also have utaguchi inlay and little to lots of Ji, just not completely filled. Jiari has a completely plastered bore and every centimeter adjusted for dimensions. It never seemed like Kinya was very philosophical about any of this (probably due to my poor Japanese language ability). But, it was clear that he loved making and playing all kinds of flutes.

Whether or not an instrument is good or not-so-good is largely dependant upon the maker or luck. There are good Jinashi and there are not-so-good Jinashi, there are good Jiari and there are not-so-good Jiari.

ABAXAS wrote:

...Telecaster better than Stratocaster,

I guess it depends upon whether you're a Springsteen or Hendrix fan! I prefer the Strat wink


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#98 2009-05-04 13:33:43

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Jimori is not a new term as such - as already discussed in another long thread. If you read the journal Sankyoku from Taisho and early Showa periods, many use that term. I am guessing it then fell out of use as jinuri/jiari became such a standard that the other words weren't used.
That has changed and I observe how the term jimori is spreading. Not only was it totally accepted among researchers in Japan and some makers (certainly not all) I also occasionally receive emails from random Japanese people asking me about scores etc. They often then tell me they play jinashi - well lately several have used the term jimori... smile

Anybody can, of course, determine themselves what to call their flutes and the different categories of flutes. Kin'ya is a wonderful maker - who strongly associates himself with Watazumi. I guess that is why he uses the hotchiku when describing the flutes without any ji.
I believe the etymological problem with some of these terms have made the Japanese researchers dig out the word jimori again. Thus it is somewhat new in use but not a new word.  The three terms:

Jinashi; Jimori; Jinuri/jiari/jitsuki

are generic terms not associated with anybody or any groups. They simply describe the method of construction.
None of the flutes are better than any of the other!
Anyone can use the terms hotchiku or kyotaku or any other as they like about their flutes - obviously.
I am sure everyone on the forum loves all three types!

Hallelujah!

I have the gut feeling that when Ed begins to come in with his intelligent remarks - then it is time to stop a thread! smile
I miss Horst Xenmeister! Where is he when he is needed!


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#99 2009-05-04 15:28:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

Josh wrote:

To save myself a long, pointless, boring debate with some of the jinashi extremists here in Japan I just call some of my flutes jimori, they think I'm part of the "new wave" or something, and we both go about our business peacefully smile

Please tell us about these Japanese jinashi extremists. What kind of music do they play and what kind of music do they not play? And how does their extremism exhibit itself? How many of them are there?  This sounds amusing.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#100 2009-05-04 20:55:43

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: To Ji or not to Ji that is the question.

For amusement's sake I'll expand, but I am in no way trying to say that the schools involved are all this way or that this is their policy, just a few crazy birds in the bunch. In Nara there are a group of guys associated with the Myoan-ha who get together in the mountains nearby and play for each other.  They attend the big sessions at Myoanji in Kyoto as well as are associated with players down in Wakayama in the Hotto-kai. They play on some jinashi made by other makers but often play on self made ones as well. One guy in particular has a few Kogetsu and other very famous, and probably expensive, flutes, but unfortunately he is more of a collector/drinker rahter than a dedicated player.
I call them extremists just from their conversations of  how the absolute no ji flutes are supperior to all. I think it stems from a more philosophical base rahter than musical one for them. By any culture's standards of pitch, these guys are F*#'!ed! They play mostly Myoan and slower honkyoku, but they also do some improvising, which to me sounds more like completely random off-pitch notes thrown together.   They did an improvised honkyoku-ish duet once that was kind of painful to listen to.
I'm not sure why the addition of ji is such a problem for them, but I think it has a lot to do with the social makeup of their group. It is what defines them as a group, therefore giving them the strength to continue even deeper into their constructed world. It's part of their group identity that they wear on their sleaves when they go to larger shakuhachi gatherings, which attracts likeminded players.
That particular group has about 10 members, but they say they know a lot of likeminded players who are skattered around. Isked them if they play songs like Amazing Grace or Minyo and they said that that music wasn't made for the kind of flutes they play, so they don't play it. They say that adding Ji is like dumbing down the instrument for the mass public. If we all had flutes like Fujiwara Douzan we could play easily like he does. Which is quite illogical because although I don't desire Douzan's sound, there is no doubt that he has been practicing dilligently since he was 10 or so I think to get to where he is musically.
Oppositely, I have met jiari extremists at some of Yokoyama's Bisei camps. They just think that it's only a good flute and worth the money if there is a lot of ji and boom in the flute. The majority of us players are in the grey areas somewhere in the middle, but it is interesting and sometimes amusing to look at the extremes.

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