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#76 2009-05-08 09:20:40

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Finalizing Tanko Bushi and Kuroda Bushi, digging into Sandan No Shirabe and another Fukuda Rando piece (the titles for the scores i have are written in Japanese, so I can never remember their names) and revisiting Hon Shirabe with more technique.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#77 2009-05-08 09:58:27

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Working on ro kan dai meri...trying to make it appear when it should appear...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#78 2009-05-08 10:08:50

purehappiness
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From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

edosan wrote:

purehappiness wrote:

If you could post what you have I would love to try it. smile Miles davis smile

Just put the record on, and play along with it. That's what he's doing...

Good idea. Now to check rhapsody. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#79 2009-05-08 17:29:25

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

I have a process for playing a long with records. First I listen to it (many times over and over again), I sing a long with it (if you can sing it yo can play it) , try to analyse the piece to figurate whats going on, in the end I play along with it.

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#80 2009-05-08 19:41:41

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

purehappiness wrote:

edosan wrote:

purehappiness wrote:

If you could post what you have I would love to try it. smile Miles davis smile

Just put the record on, and play along with it. That's what he's doing...

Good idea. Now to check rhapsody. smile

Just go straight to iTunes, and buy it. Now. They also have the 'Legacy Album', which includes a video for a few more bucks.

The audio is a must have, however, no matter what. You will go to hell if you don't possess this album...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#81 2009-05-12 08:48:24

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

try to analyse the piece to figurate whats going on

My figuration skills are a little under par.  That is something I could work on more.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#82 2009-05-14 14:19:03

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Hi all,

second lesson had passed, still practice "Hi-Fu-Mi" but now with all the meri´s and kari´s. I really like "Hi-Fu-Mi" it´s simple but can be played so nice and strong. Also, preparing for the next lesson in about three weeks to practice the second song "Hon Te Choshi". Its hard for me to hold the second octave in the higher notes like "YA" and "I".

Last edited by Christopher B. (2009-05-14 14:20:01)


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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#83 2009-05-14 15:14:34

purehappiness
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From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Kan takes some work but you will get it. I am still having some difficulty but I am a newbie too. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#84 2009-05-16 14:13:26

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Kan is still sounds strange in the higher notes, switching from "I" to "FU" in Kan is really trickie for my as a beginner.


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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How do you know that life is a dream? Cause there is a way to wake up!
http://naturalbreath.wordpress.com/

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#85 2009-05-16 17:35:43

purehappiness
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From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

You will get it. It probably has to do with pitch and your angle.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#86 2009-05-17 11:04:55

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Christopher B. wrote:

Kan is still sounds strange in the higher notes, switching from "I" to "FU" in Kan is really trickie for my as a beginner.

I know there are notational differences, but isn't FU the third D you can reach on a 1.8? That's a very difficult note and I think is actually considered Dai Kan. Work up to it. Practicing some things like high notes can be tough because after a certain point the practice can be non-productive and be better spent practicing other things. Also, you can blow your embouchure with over-practice of high notes because of tension involved. That can end up forcing you to shorten your planned practice session while your muscles recooperate. Or you can continue practicing anyway with fatigued muscles but then even the notes you know you could previously play well will sound bad and could be a source of discouragement.

Getting that far in range with meri's and kari's is pretty darn good for 2 lessons. From what I've seen of two different beginner's books you've skipped way to the end of the books in just 2 lessons. There's nothing wrong with that, possibly just a different approach your teacher is taking, but the knowledge that those are difficult notes that some don't get to until much later should alleviate any frustration you might be feeling.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#87 2009-05-17 12:07:17

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

"FU" is like "RO" in Kinko. The first note in "Kan" and "Otsu". I am actually focus on the meri´s in "Hi-Fu-Mi" but for the next lesson in about 3 weeks I have to learn the basics in kan, cause the new track we are workin on has a long part in kan.

Last edited by Christopher B. (2009-05-17 13:47:10)


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know that life is a dream? Cause there is a way to wake up!
http://naturalbreath.wordpress.com/

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#88 2009-05-18 08:54:28

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Still working on Sandan No Shirabe and Rando pieces.  Beginning to feel out Sanya (second version on Yokoyama's Honkyoku collection).  So far I have just been listening to it.  It seems very introspective.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#89 2009-05-18 09:17:30

purehappiness
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From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Fu then should not be too hard to get. I put my lips closer to the utaguchi when doing kan notes. This increases pressure which gives you the next octave. I hope I am not wrong in doing this. I am just a beginner too.I can play with my lips closer altogether too. I just have to slow down the pressure for otsu notes. This works too.

I have to also note that it has to do with making minor adjustments with your lip closeness too. A more relaxed embouchure gives you otsu and a tighter embouchure will give you kan. More or less. It takes practice.

Now that I think about it a little more . Putting your tongue close to the opening in your mouth will also give you kan. I think all of these together make be what is required. more or less.

Last edited by purehappiness (2009-05-18 09:26:29)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#90 2009-05-18 09:29:15

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Hi thanks for your help, the tighter lips work for me but I think getting closer to the utaguchi will flaten the pitch or what? I am still a beginner too so maybe someone with more experience can help us smile


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know that life is a dream? Cause there is a way to wake up!
http://naturalbreath.wordpress.com/

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#91 2009-05-18 09:47:47

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Hi thanks for your help, the tighter lips work for me but I think getting closer to the utaguchi will flaten the pitch or what? I am still a beginner too so maybe someone with more experience can help us.

That is very correct Chris.  A tuner will shed light on how much closer you can get to the utaguchi without sacrificing the pitch.  I find that playing standing up and paying particular attention to my entire posture, including the neck but also the shoulders and back, really helps as well. 

An exercise that one teacher showed me is to blow a note in Otsu and then try to turn the note into Kan.  In switching back and forth from Otsu to Kan and back, you will begin to internalize exactly what it is that you are doing to acheive Kan.  You may find that keeping the head/chin Kari'd may be preferable to acheiving Kan.  You can even go from Otsu to Kan to Dai Kan and then back down and then back up.  In the end, I think each player has to internalize these things for themselves.  I am not sure that a "formula" can be given.  For some reason when I started a little over a year ago, I really wanted to hit Kan fast.  I practiced it and practiced it.  As a result, I can acheive Kan consistently and pretty easily.  However, I had to start practicing other techniques because the emphasis I placed on Kan had created a pretty "pursed" embochure.  This made/makes Meri notes more difficult, I think.  So it is a process, and I think we may not all go through the same steps of that process in the same order.  Time WILL allow you to acheive Kan consistently, but you are correct to be worried about developing bad habits along the way.  It is harder to unlearn those than it is to learn something new.

I think Brian R. said something that may seem counter-intuitive to us beginners but has played out in my experience at least; "The best way to have a strong/good Kan is to have a strong/good Otsu."  I am paraphrasing, so I hope I did not get that so very wrong.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#92 2009-05-18 10:15:13

Christopher B.
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From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

I really think you are right, I mak eit the same I do a note in Otsu than in Kan. It works well but sounds really really strange. My teacher allready showed me how to get Kan correct an he saied that I do very well but up in the higher notes it is trickie for me to get Kan on my flute. I will ask my teacher next time if there is a exercise he can give me to get Kan better in the higher notes.

I will focus on the meri´s and on "Hi-Fu-Mi" till the next lesson, so my teacher can help me to get the higher notes.

Thanks alot for your help!


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know that life is a dream? Cause there is a way to wake up!
http://naturalbreath.wordpress.com/

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#93 2009-05-18 11:18:36

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

lowonthetotem wrote:

However, I had to start practicing other techniques because the emphasis I placed on Kan had created a pretty "pursed" embochure.  This made/makes Meri notes more difficult, I think.

I'm experimenting with my embouchure too. After seeing a Galway (silver flute) video about a particular embouchure, remembering Peter Kororo's post where he suggested to use a pursed lips embouchure, and having some verification in another thread that at least one Japanese player is recommending an embouchure similar to Galway's, it seemed like a worthwhile experiment. Unlike you, I'm not finding that it hinders the meri's at all, and I think Peter Kororo may have been recommending the embouchure partly to help with meri's. I'm having some pretty major basic tone production problems switching to a different embouchure, but right now it looks like it has a lot of potential, I like the tone better when I get it and am able to hold onto it.

BTW, I had to google to find out what "pursed lips" meant: http://www.fotosearch.com/IGS284/ev930-015/ and it sure looks like what Peter Kororo suggested is similar to what Galway was suggesting.

Here's an excerpt from Peter's post:

Peter Kororo wrote:

What happens when you move to a more kari position--which is the right thing to do--is, because the fulcrum is your chin, your lips will move further away from the blowing edge. This will bring the pitch up, but will also make the tone breathy because the hole at the top has become bigger. So you need to purse your lips out so that they stay close to the blowing edge, and, as this will bring the tone down from edosan's suggested method, kari even a little more than he suggests, i.e. more than 45 degrees. The sound will then be clear and "hard" or transparent, in tune, and since the "sixth hole" won't be too big, and your lips are close, there will be
less wasted breath and longer, stronger notes are possible.

I found that here: http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 82&p=2

That post has been really haunting me since I first saw it. I think it points to the holy grail of flute playing smile

Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-05-18 11:34:34)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#94 2009-05-18 12:21:59

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

You have to understand that I don't have a musical background before coming to shakuhachi.  When I say "pursed" I am not talking about moving the lips out closer to the edge.  I am talking about an embochure that is on the tense side where my lips and even my cheeks to an extent exhibit a great deal of "tightness."  This affected the tone of all my notes and I noticed a wholesale "smoothing" of the tone when I was able to relax more.  The tension was inhibiting my ability to build a pillow of air behind my lower lip.  This pillow becomes crucial in Meri's as it allows the flute some wiggle room in the distance it can be help from the mouth with a void developing between the flute and the lips.  After working on things a little, I am getting able to hit Kan without really tensing up in my face but just bringing the lips closer together.  Of course this is relative to the air pressure coming through, as this will affect how tight of a "hole" the lips can produce.  Like I said, I am not sure there is a "formula," at least for me.  It is hard for me to say exactly what I do with my lips and mouth.  I just know that the more I relax (throughout my face neck and shoulders really), the better the tone.  I am the kind of guy that goes a long way on muscle memory without really consciously trying to do this or that.

I do think that Peter brings up a good point though about the "sixth" hole, which would make me, at least, suspicious of an embochure recommended by someone playing the silver flute.  Unlike the silver flute, the utaguchi is a semi circle, an incomplete hole.  We have to provide the other side of that hole, and to some extent adjust the diameter of that whole for different notes and sounds.  In my short daliance with the Irish flute, I noticed this to be a great difference separating end blown flutes from side ways flutes.  I ended up putting the Irish flute away because it seemed to make me a little complacement when it came to chin movement and being conscious of the "incomplete" hole.  Of course, that probably comes more from not studying music and then trying to pick up two instruments in the first six months rather than concentrating on one.

Last edited by lowonthetotem (2009-05-18 12:31:30)


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#95 2009-05-18 12:38:04

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Peter Kororo wrote:

    What happens when you move to a more kari position--which is the right thing to do--is, because the fulcrum is your chin, your lips will move further away from the blowing edge. This will bring the pitch up, but will also make the tone breathy because the hole at the top has become bigger. So you need to purse your lips out so that they stay close to the blowing edge, and, as this will bring the tone down from edosan's suggested method, kari even a little more than he suggests, i.e. more than 45 degrees. The sound will then be clear and "hard" or transparent, in tune, and since the "sixth hole" won't be too big, and your lips are close, there will be
    less wasted breath and longer, stronger notes are possible.

Fine and dandy. Holy Grail, perhaps. Only thing is, it makes no sense: If you open up the 'sixth hole' by kari-ing to raise the pitch, then move your lips back toward the blowing edge to make the sound 'clear and "hard" or transparent, etc.", you are closing down the sixth hole again, lowering the pitch, maybe a little, maybe a lot. I would stick by the assertion that what it takes (to kari and maintain clarity) is a very focused and reliable airstream, and that is what Kokoro and other good players have developed.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#96 2009-05-18 12:48:58

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

edosan wrote:

Fine and dandy. Holy Grail, perhaps. Only thing is, it makes no sense: If you open up the 'sixth hole' by kari-ing to raise the pitch, then move your lips back toward the blowing edge to make the sound 'clear and "hard" or transparent, etc.", you are closing down the sixth hole again, lowering the pitch, maybe a little, maybe a lot. I would stick by the assertion that what it takes (to kari and maintain clarity) is a very focused and reliable airstream, and that is what Kokoro and other good players have developed.

I'd have to go back and look search through videos again, but I'm pretty sure that I've seen at least two different embouchures being used. One being a "smiley" type where the lips end up getting pulled back some against the teeth and another pursed lips one. True, the physics of what Peter described doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but with the little experimentation I've done (at my beginner level) I'm able to get my kari's higher with less of that stray air sound.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#97 2009-05-18 13:30:21

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

radi0gnome wrote:

I'd have to go back and look search through videos again,

OK, done.

Look at 1:15 seconds, this is the pursed lips emobouchure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lftV5-1Oh0A

This one's pretty good too, pursed lips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ug8tzJHqk

And this is one you posted in the past, it's teaching the smiley embouchure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZlVXynkGes


Actually, I'm finding it difficult to find video clips from Asia that are not using the pursed lips embouchure. All are at least non-smiley (maybe there more than one kind of non-smiley embouchure), although some aren't close up enough to see.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-05-18 13:58:26)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#98 2009-05-18 14:47:18

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5030/blowingsmile9mq.jpg


Well, actually, according to my exhaustive research, there is the:

Pursed lips embouchure before eating persimmon

Pursed lips embouchure after eating persimmon

Smiley embouchure before having domestic quarrel with wife

Smiley embouchure after having domestic quarrel with wife

Smiley embouchre produced by the player who never smiles

Pursed/Smiley embouchure produced by the player who is ambivalent

Why do you keep pursuing these irrelevant threads for minutiae that you think/hope will make a difference? They don't. For one thing, there are far too many differences among people's facial anatomy and the way their musculature responds to make any conclusive statements about just WHAT the 'successfully shaped' embouchure should look like.

If you took ten capable players, lined them up abreast, and had them 'assume the position', they'd all look pretty much the same from 20 feet away, but they'd all look very different upon close examination. What's more important: they'd all sound pretty different, too.

So, move on. Just blow on the goddam thing.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#99 2009-05-18 15:14:24

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

edosan wrote:

So, move on. Just blow on the goddam thing.

With which embouchure?

I don't see why someone couldn't change their embouchure. Sure there are physical differences, like the teardrop shaped lip that's been discussed previously, but there are enough variables that rule out that anybody should be stuck with one and only one way of producing an accepted flute tone.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#100 2009-05-18 15:51:53

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

In your picture, the arrows are pointing to folds created by the muscles in the cheeks. That's not what I was referring to as smiley. There obviously can still be tension with a non-smiley embouchure. What I'm referring to as smiley is turning the corners of the lips up, like in the Jon Kypros video. 

That non-smiley can be made with very little cheek tension too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QgHmDgvzA8

edosan wrote:

Why do you keep pursuing these irrelevant threads for minutiae that you think/hope will make a difference? They don't.

OK, so you don't think changing my embouchure will make any difference to my overall sound. Are you trying to keep the holy grail all to yourself?

Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-05-18 16:05:09)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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