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#101 2009-05-19 02:59:34

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

This embouchure stuff is  starting to slip off topic, and should probably be moved - But...

Is there such a thing as a perfect embouchure?
Maybe I'm just not at that stage yet, and at the moment I can't get to lessons; So my practice (mainly  Honte no shirabe, and long tones, with a few scales and some Sokkan thrown in) tends to be different every time; I'm not even trying to get a consistent tone, but make each variation as good a possible, whether its tight and reedy or loose and airy. Pretty much  every day gets a different sound - give it ten years and I 'recon I might have control!

Oh and pay no attention to that Cup behind the curtain - Ed needs it for turning water into wine ;-)

Busy,Busy,Busy


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#102 2009-05-19 11:20:55

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Ambi wrote:

This embouchure stuff is  starting to slip off topic, and should probably be moved - But...

Is there such a thing as a perfect embouchure?
Maybe I'm just not at that stage yet, and at the moment I can't get to lessons; So my practice (mainly  Honte no shirabe, and long tones, with a few scales and some Sokkan thrown in) tends to be different every time; I'm not even trying to get a consistent tone, but make each variation as good a possible, whether its tight and reedy or loose and airy. Pretty much  every day gets a different sound - give it ten years and I 'recon I might have control!

Oh and pay no attention to that Cup behind the curtain - Ed needs it for turning water into wine ;-)

Busy,Busy,Busy

Answer: no, no, no and no (did I say 'no'?). There is not, in my not so humble opinion, a 'perfect embouchure'. That's quite the whole wonderful aspect to shakuhach, innit?

By consistency, I DO mean control, but control to the extent that all those wonderful colo/urs can be brought out with some intent. I think this is attained by, as you say 'making each variation as good as possible, whether it's tight and reedy or loose and airy.' Thing about accomplished players is that they can do these things on demand (mostly).

Now, care for some ChardonĂ©?   [picky, picky, picky...]

Last edited by edosan (2009-05-19 12:19:43)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#103 2009-05-19 11:28:20

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

I was told that you can hold the same flute the same way, put it on the same place on your chin, blow with the same intensity, and assume the same posture, but the sound may still come out different because you didn't drink the same amount of water that day and your lips are thinner.  Trying to play correctly, nonetheless, is the essence of shakuhachi.

You are missing the accent aigu in "Chardone," or is it an accent grave?


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#104 2009-05-19 11:28:30

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

True. The shakuhachi can make so many different sounds a different embouchure may be a good thing. Getting things under control now that is the hard part.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#105 2009-05-19 12:19:50

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 132
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Actually, it's "Chardonnay".

Everyone's embouchure is different 'cos everyone's physiology is different. The typical guidelines for embouchure are just that - guidelines; starting points to discover what works best for each of us.

Elliot (from the heart of California Wine Country)

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#106 2009-05-19 12:47:20

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Actually, it's "Chardonnay".

Really?  big_smile


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#107 2009-05-19 12:53:12

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

If there is such a thing as the perfect shakuhachi embouchure I know one thing for sure about it....it will be flexible. So beginners don't get confused in all of this. In the beginning you just need to focus on getting control of the sound and establishing some stability(no small task). Once you've established an area of control you can start to develop flexibility within that range of control. But I think the concept of the perfect embouchure might be a little elusive to nail down.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#108 2009-05-19 13:18:55

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Elliot K wrote:

Actually, it's "Chardonnay".

Well, how 'bout a Polly Fusey, then?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#109 2009-05-19 13:24:13

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 132
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

lowonthetotem wrote:

Actually, it's "Chardonnay".

Really?  big_smile

Hmmm. Judging from the smiley I probably should have waited until I had more tea this morning before putting fingers to keyboard... (and should have guessed that the Googlemeister would know how to spell!).
As Gilda used to say, "Never mind."

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#110 2009-05-19 13:34:08

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Elliot K wrote:

Everyone's embouchure is different 'cos everyone's physiology is different. The typical guidelines for embouchure are just that - guidelines; starting points to discover what works best for each of us.

True, but there are different basic ways to play, at least two. One is the smiley embouchure, or any variant of it. It's probably the most intuitive, and can be taught as simply as telling a student to visualize spitting out watermelon seeds or something similar. Another is the "pursed lips", it's less intuitive so that as long as a teacher isn't trying to specifically get a student to use it, it probably won't be used.

Sometimes if the horse you're on isn't getting you where you want to go you need to bite the bullet and change horses. You might have to train the new horse first before it will serve you as well as the good old reliable horse you spent so many years with, but in the end it might prove to serve you better. So, I've decided to change horses and switch to a pursed lips embouchure. It's kind of tough because now I'm running into some basic tone production issues again that I thought were well behind me (admittedly not totally sorted out, hence my searching further), but my hopes are that the change will help me get to the sound I'm after. So far, it looks like it might.   

Edosan is right, there probably is no holy grail, and as soon as I get this behind me there will be something else I'll need to change to play as freely as I want. It's kind of two different approaches to teaching, including self-teaching which goes on a lot even if you have a teacher. The approach Edosan is suggesting is to "just pick up and blow the thing" and eventually you'll get something working through self-discovery. This is a tried and true method and has been used for centuries for many different instruments. Then there is the method of finding a brilliant player, like Galway in this instance, to break down what he is doing and start from ground zero and rebuild. Will it actually save me time in getting to where I want to go? I don't know, but I've decided to give it a shot, particularly since I see a lot of players getting the sound I want using that embouchure.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#111 2009-05-19 13:36:45

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Cheers
- So long as it's un-oaked - well maybe just a bit of oak....
Slainte


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#112 2009-05-19 15:18:06

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Elliot K wrote:

lowonthetotem wrote:

Actually, it's "Chardonnay".

Really?  big_smile

Hmmm. Judging from the smiley I probably should have waited until I had more tea this morning before putting fingers to keyboard... (and should have guessed that the Googlemeister would know how to spell!).
As Gilda used to say, "Never mind."

And then, of course, there's the water-into-wine part wink

     [Ah, Gilda. How she's missed. 'Twould be even more interesting times with her input, wouldn't it?]


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#113 2009-05-20 07:08:43

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

The first thing I learned from one of my teachers is. "There haven´t to be tensions on your lips just a little groundtension, just breath out trouh the underlip" and it works well, a few days after that lesson I produce sounds. So I think everyone have a uniqe embouchure, there are just some tips to get started but there is no perfect embouchure for playing shakuhachi and there is no need to imitate the smile of someone other to make a good sound. There are not at least 2 embouchures there a 1000 of embouchures, for each player one tongue


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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#114 2009-05-20 07:49:45

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Christopher B. wrote:

There are not at least 2 embouchures there a 1000 of embouchures, for each player one tongue

Actually a good player has several different embouchures.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#115 2009-05-20 07:55:46

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Tairaku,

I am totaly fine with that smile


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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How do you know that life is a dream? Cause there is a way to wake up!
http://naturalbreath.wordpress.com/

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#116 2009-05-20 09:12:58

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

I find that the harder I try, the harder it is to make a sound. So, the less tension in your lips the better. That is true.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#117 2009-06-29 20:10:23

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

OK, I started learning Itsuki on my own by ear when Edosan posted an Mp3 of it a few weeks ago (thanks Ed!). This is actually from about a week ago and I have it a bit better now, but I still can't get all the way through the song without a show stopping mistake almost every time. I could also say I'm practicing to use the editing features on my recorder because I had to do some editing. The last phrase is spliced from a previous take because a couldn't get a clean enough run through the entire song. http://www.4shared.com/file/114976669/6 … _gain.html

One thing that might be of interest and maybe fodder for discussion is that on the last (9th) take, I realized that it was going pretty darn good and that it might be the last take, and that's when I choked and messed up the last phrase. I guess it's real important to stay in the moment.               

BTW, my teacher, Geni, has no knowledge of me working on this and gave no input. So anything I did wrong is not his fault. smile


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#118 2009-06-29 20:59:02

MikeL
Member
Registered: 2008-05-18
Posts: 55

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

radi0gnome wrote:

OK, I started learning Itsuki on my own by ear when Edosan posted an Mp3 of it a few weeks ago (thanks Ed!).

I didn't notice the posting of the MP3, but it sounded familiar to me when I
listened to your recording.

Turns out the notation is included in the "Ichiyo Shakuhachi Manual Volume 2"
that I have, by Tom Deaver. It's listed as "Itsuki No Ko Mori Uta".

I'm no pro, but from your recording that you posted I think that you
basically have it.

- Mike

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#119 2009-07-02 12:17:13

Yooper
Member
From: Michigan, on the WI border
Registered: 2007-11-26
Posts: 57

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

Very nice.


"Simple and artless."

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#120 2009-07-02 13:27:40

indigo
Member
From: Brooklyn, New York
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 52

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

These days spent practicing some of the difficult gaikyoku have illuminated my lack of pitch control and feeling.
Therefore the chromatic scale came to mind.  Started playing from Ro up 1 whole tone then down 1/2 tone then up whole tone then down 1/2 tone etc. for both octaves. At this point dai kan is sketchy.  Going down 1 tone then up 1/2 then down whole tone etc. seems good also.  Feels like a good way to play all of the 12 pitches with whole and 1/2 intervals.  So notes like re chu meri , tsu chu meri and ri chu meri and ri meri   begin to come into some sort of relative focus. 

My knowledge and experience of scale practice is limited.  Does anyone else work with the chromatic scale in  interesting and productive ways?

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#121 2009-07-13 20:07:14

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

I wanted to add some zip to the simple children's folk songs I know so I'm adding some grace notes to them. http://www.4shared.com/file/117901523/f … yansi.html


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#122 2009-07-13 20:12:26

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

indigo wrote:

These days spent practicing some of the difficult gaikyoku have illuminated my lack of pitch control and feeling.
Therefore the chromatic scale came to mind.  Started playing from Ro up 1 whole tone then down 1/2 tone then up whole tone then down 1/2 tone etc. for both octaves. At this point dai kan is sketchy.  Going down 1 tone then up 1/2 then down whole tone etc. seems good also.  Feels like a good way to play all of the 12 pitches with whole and 1/2 intervals.  So notes like re chu meri , tsu chu meri and ri chu meri and ri meri   begin to come into some sort of relative focus. 

My knowledge and experience of scale practice is limited.  Does anyone else work with the chromatic scale in  interesting and productive ways?

Geni gave me a 5th's exercise that goes D (up) A , Bb (down) Eb, E (up) B, C (down) G,... That hits all the chromatic notes and it's always good to learn where the 5th's are too.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#123 2009-07-15 13:17:46

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

MikeL wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

OK, I started learning Itsuki on my own by ear when Edosan posted an Mp3 of it a few weeks ago (thanks Ed!).

I didn't notice the posting of the MP3, but it sounded familiar to me when I
listened to your recording.

It probably wasn't the first time I heard it when Ed posted the clip, but I wasn't sure. It's a very beautiful melody: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj4aw6eaBoI


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#124 2009-07-18 23:02:29

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

these days i am working on some Shakuhachi Choir ideas. They are good for intonation too wink . If somebody is interessted to hear them just email me.

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#125 2009-08-18 22:25:07

mean1010
Member
Registered: 2009-08-18
Posts: 1

Re: What are the Pro's, Non-Pro's, Semi-Pro's, etc Practicing These Days?

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