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We've got a discussion here in Russia, and currently have two different opinions:
1. Simple return back to the initial tone after meri.
2. Sound ending when you do kari, and then keep on moving a shaku until a sound goes out completely. And at the very end, right before a silence you can hear a windy sound for a moment.
Sorry for my English, I'm not that much familiar with the terminology so far.
Could you, guys, advise which one is closer to the truth? Taking into account different schools, dojos, and, finally, that there's no absolute truth on earth;)
Thanx in advance for your help,
Igor
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"DASU" is a verb meaning "to put out" as it's used in an active sense. I believe it has more to do with moving the chin back up after it being lowered because "ago wo dasu" would mean "raise the chin" and this is found always and only after a meri note. Other contexts would be "put the dog out", or "take money out of your wallet", or "make a sound" (oto wo dashite), for example. So what you say, Phil, about going up to a non-pitched air could be close and applicable, i.e. put the air out or pull the air out of the hole, but again, since it's tied into referencing the chin position at meri in the previous note, it was probably meant initially as instructions for the chin movement.
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That makes sense, since it's almost always after hiku -- so the reverse of hiku seems like a good way to view it. Thanks for the good Japanese lesson, Michael!
Last edited by nyokai (2009-07-14 22:30:30)
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I just reread the original question...
Dasu does NOT necessarily mean "return to kari." It can mean "move your head back up to where it was before the hiku, even if that's a meri." For instance, take the honkyoku stereotype "u - hiku - dasu - ri" (or "tsu no meri - hiku - dasu - re"). I think many or most players would play the dasu as a return to the original meri pitch, not something higher than that. So the basic melody is "u - ri" (or "tsu no meri - re") with a little down-up ornament in the first note.
On the other hand, if the basic melody is a downward one ("u - hiku - dasu - tsu no meri") or if the phrase ends on the dasu ("u - hiku - dasu"), then, depending on the piece, lineage, and teacher, the dasu MAY be all the way up to kari or even dai kari or air. As I mentioned earlier, the Jin Nyodo notation usually makes this clear by supplementing the dasu notation with other instructions. The Jin Nyodo notation (and Yodo Kurahashi notation) is generally excellent in differentiating between pitch (meri, kari) and technique used to achieve it (specific cross-fingering, kazashi, hiku, etc.) -- much Kinko notation is more minimalist. But even with maximalist notation, it is still best to have a teacher guide you, as consistency is never a given. In fact, inconsistency is a given.
Last edited by nyokai (2009-07-16 01:35:30)
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Words to live by:
"...inconsistency is a given..."
and:
"...the opposite is also true..."
Last edited by edosan (2009-07-15 09:01:35)
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Phil wrote:
The Jin Nyodo notation (and Yodo Kurahashi notation) is generally excellent in differentiating between pitch (meri, kari) and technique used to achieve it (specific cross-fingering, kazashi, hiku, etc.)
I had to laugh here Phil. I agree if the key word is "generally" as the scores are marked with meri/kari but looking at Jin's original scores are a trip. One only needs a degree in classical Japanese shorthand to play them. One has to surmise these were inventions he used to give himself directiions when playing as he went around collecting scores and learning songs at different temples. These were his shorthand notes that have become "the Meian Bible", so to speak. It is the opposite of what we usually run into where there's never enough info in the score. Maybe this accounts for the slower movement of the melodic line in Meian playing (generally) since people had to stop and read so much before they could play each note. This is a bit tongue in cheek but probably about a half truth. I imagine someone out there can ask and find out more. I'll go to the Cleveland Komuso Archives Building downtown and take a look. I think it's next to the branch of Cleveland Meianji Temple on main Street.
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Well, yeah, they are a bit heavy on the extra stuff, and some is pretty cryptic. Yodo Kurahashi scores are easier, though same resulting sound. I guess a lot of the traditional notation is too little or too much, so you need a guide to get you either through the desert or through the jungle. Keeps it an oral tradition.
I think people sometimes worry too much about notation. With a good teacher you're learning mostly by ear anyway, recognizing common patterns etc. The notation is a reminder. Western notation, though it is supposedly an accurate snapshot of a piece rather than a teacher's scribblings, is also full of arcane peculiarities -- unless you're reading Percy Grainger scores (where the directives are pure Australian) or more modern American stuff, you have to know some Italian, some German, and lots of obscure symbols as well as a complex hybrid form of graphing that is pretty challenging at first. Having taught western music for years, I would say that in practical application Jin Nyodo scores are still easier.
Last edited by nyokai (2009-07-15 11:56:37)
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Many thanks, nyokai and chikuzen! I've got the overall idea, it will take another few years to get the details. And few more to implement:)
Last edited by stefan (2009-07-15 16:00:21)
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2 questions,
1) will learning how to read japanese help with? (reading the scores)
2) if learning by ear, who needs a teacher? 4 CDs for the price of a leson.
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geni wrote:
2 questions,
1) will learning how to read japanese help with? (reading the scores)
2) if learning by ear, who needs a teacher? 4 CDs for the price of a leson.
1. I don't read Japanese except for the stuff that comes up in the music. Some of it would definitely have been easier to understand if I could read more general Japanese, but you'd still need some explanation anyway since as Michael points out a lot of it is shorthand and terms of art.
2. In my experience there's a big difference between imitation and immersion/transmission/ownership, even though both involve learning principally by ear. The difference, I think, is not just in the depth of the experience (understanding context etc.) but in the free individuality of the resulting playing.
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geni wrote:
2) if learning by ear, who needs a teacher? 4 CDs for the price of a leson.
Amazing to me that you, who have just completed work on a Master's in Jazz, studying with seasoned players/teachers, would ask such a question.
Why didn't you just buy 50 CDs, retire to the woodshed, and be done with it?
Oh, yeah, forgot: you had a scholarship
Last edited by edosan (2009-07-16 09:55:18)
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Nyokai thanks for you explanation.
Mr Ed...You know very well what I do these days. I got my CD list & woodshed!! & taking lessons.
What do you guys recomand for learning how to read some Japanese?
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Geni, there are plenty of books and online places to learn to read and write Japanese. First you need to learn how to read hiragana and katakana. This should take you a couple of weeks with effort. After that you can start to learn kanji. The best way to learn kanji is to learn how to write it though as far as I'm concerned. Like learning a piece of music, it requires a lot of repetition. Gambatte ne!
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