Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

#1 2009-07-21 19:02:55

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Gagaku is rocking my socks off these days. At the moment it is second only to shakuhachi on my playlist. I've been earballing some melodies for the shakuhachi and am curious if there are recordings and/or sheet music of gagaku for shakuhachi?

Am I correct or mistaken in recalling a reference that at some time and place shakuhachi was also occasionally part of gagaku orchestras?


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#2 2009-07-21 22:19:40

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Hi! Abraxas!    You are correct that shakuhachi has been a part of gagaku.   I will look up my cd collection in a day or two and try to list the ones that do.   Gagaku rocks!!!!!!!!!     Actually I may have some on some old LP's, too.     I'm not too familiar with the fue,   the sideblown flute,  but I believe you hear that more often in gagaku music.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

Offline

 

#3 2009-07-21 22:24:02

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Superb! Thank You!


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#4 2009-07-21 22:24:12

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

I Wiki'ed the fue so I would'nt get caught with my pants down, and a fue is considered as many kinds of flutes, both end blown and transverse,  which positively includes the shakuhachi.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

Offline

 

#5 2009-07-21 22:57:42

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

I've also recently gotten into gagaku. Do you guys have any CD suggestions?

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

Offline

 

#6 2009-07-21 23:35:27

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

So far the only one I have is GAGAKU: THE IMPERIAL COURT MUSIC OF JAPAN by the Kyoto Imperial Court Music Orchestra.

It is excellent to me, though I don't have a broad exposure to place it in context.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#7 2009-07-22 00:22:53

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

ABRAXAS wrote:

Gagaku is rocking my socks off these days. At the moment it is second only to shakuhachi on my playlist. I've been earballing some melodies for the shakuhachi and am curious if there are recordings and/or sheet music of gagaku for shakuhachi?

Am I correct or mistaken in recalling a reference that at some time and place shakuhachi was also occasionally part of gagaku orchestras?

Gagaku is great and I do love it. I have been playing Ryuteki for longer than Shakuhachi. Although I truly like to play the Ryuteki I feel that the flute is somehow limited and that traditionally it did not develop a repertoire as wide as the Shakuhachi. The Ryuteki somehow stayed withing the realm of gagaku and that is it. The flute itself is not the greatest thing to play around in fact the Nohkan is much better in tuning etc. Anyway some ryuteki players will use a Nohkan sometimes to play gagaku


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

Offline

 

#8 2009-07-22 13:06:19

dust
Member
From: Albion
Registered: 2007-09-08
Posts: 91

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi


imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete.

Offline

 

#9 2009-07-22 13:45:15

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Yes there is a lot of interesting material to be had searching GAGAKU on youtube. I have a file of mp3s I've pulled.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#10 2009-07-23 09:07:16

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Hey!,  Abraxas,  Looks like I flunked gagaku 101!     I looked thru 9 CD's and 3 LP's,   and all use various fue, both transverse and end blown,   mostly the ryuteki, hirichiki, etc.     I woulda sworn when I bought them that shakuhachi was mentioned in some of the ads,  but I guess I should have looked first before my reply.   My apologies for the misinformation.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

Offline

 

#11 2009-07-23 11:20:54

Glenn Swann
Member
From: Central New Jersey
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 151
Website

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

mrwuwu wrote:

Hey!,  Abraxas,  Looks like I flunked gagaku 101!     I looked thru 9 CD's and 3 LP's,   and all use various fue, both transverse and end blown,   mostly the ryuteki, hirichiki, etc.     I woulda sworn when I bought them that shakuhachi was mentioned in some of the ads,  but I guess I should have looked first before my reply.   My apologies for the misinformation.

As I understand it, The shakuhachi was a part of gagaku ensemble when it was 1st introduced to Japan (700's) until sometime in Heian (1000ish) when it fell out of use in the ensemble. It continued to be played solo by nobles( I remember reading somewhere that Hikaru Genji played and end-blown shakuhachi like flute) but perhaps because of its quieter sound couldn't compete with sho and hichiriki, so was replaced by ryuteki. Thus, in a modern gagaku cd you'll not find shakuhachi.

I wonder though if anyone has heard of anybody kind of reconstructing what the older enemble may have sounded like with shakuhachi?

As far as gagaku generally, I have 2 cd's which are unusual and very cool-
天平琵琶譜「番假崇」〜循環するシルクロード実行委員会編《甦る古代の響き》

THE TENPYO BIWA-FU "BANKASO" - THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE "THE ECHOES OF THE SILK ROAD"
https://www.shop.kotenha.com/ec-classic … 3cd8736ddb

It's a reconstructed piece called "Bankasou" that someone found the Biwa score for (745 ad) then recorded as Biwa solo, with gagaku instruments as it may have sounded (based on the biwa part only) then with even older instruments (like Kugo ) VERY interesting.

the other is from Arbiter records- "Gagaku * Buddhist chant Kokusai Bunka Shinkokai" recording from 1941, restored from 78's and released last year. incudes gagaku-style vocal music like kumeuta and saibara, also tendai and shingon chanting.

Last edited by Glenn Swann (2009-07-23 11:23:25)


I followed rivers, I followed orders,I followed prophets, I followed leaders
I followed rivers, I followed highways,I followed conscience,
I followed dreamers... And I'm back here,
and I'm back here... At the edge of the sky       (New Model Army)

Offline

 

#12 2009-07-23 11:28:22

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Glenn Swann wrote:

mrwuwu wrote:

Hey!,  Abraxas,  Looks like I flunked gagaku 101!     I looked thru 9 CD's and 3 LP's,   and all use various fue, both transverse and end blown,   mostly the ryuteki, hirichiki, etc.     I woulda sworn when I bought them that shakuhachi was mentioned in some of the ads,  but I guess I should have looked first before my reply.   My apologies for the misinformation.

As I understand it, The shakuhachi was a part of gagaku ensemble when it was 1st introduced to Japan (700's) until sometime in Heian (1000ish) when it fell out of use in the ensemble. It continued to be played solo by nobles( I remember reading somewhere that Hikaru Genji played and end-blown shakuhachi like flute) but perhaps because of its quieter sound couldn't compete with sho and hichiriki, so was replaced by ryuteki. Thus, in a modern gagaku cd you'll not find shakuhachi.

I wonder though if anyone has heard of anybody kind of reconstructing what the older enemble may have sounded like with shakuhachi?

As far as gagaku generally, I have 2 cd's which are unusual and very cool-
天平琵琶譜「番假崇」〜循環するシルクロード実行委員会編《甦る古代の響き》

THE TENPYO BIWA-FU "BANKASO" - THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE "THE ECHOES OF THE SILK ROAD"
https://www.shop.kotenha.com/ec-classic … 3cd8736ddb

It's a reconstructed piece called "Bankasou" that someone found the Biwa score for (745 ad) then recorded as Biwa solo, with gagaku instruments as it may have sounded (based on the biwa part only) then with even older instruments (like Kugo ) VERY interesting.

the other is from Arbiter records- "Gagaku * Buddhist chant Kokusai Bunka Shinkokai" recording from 1941, restored from 78's and released last year. incudes gagaku-style vocal music like kumeuta and saibara, also tendai and shingon chanting.

FANTASTIC info! Thank You!

I'm finding most of the melodies encountered are readily adaptable to shakuhachi. Its fun, even though they sound good on longer flutes like I usually play, that they impel me to use some of my shorter flutes more to approximate the sound of the smaller flutes used in gagaku.  Normally my smaller flutes (under 2.3) don't get much play - so I'm glad to be giving them more attention.

I like playing these kinds of very "simple" and very slow paced melodies. The timing in gagaku is awesome.

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2009-07-23 11:37:01)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#13 2009-07-23 11:34:25

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Gishin wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

Gagaku is rocking my socks off these days. At the moment it is second only to shakuhachi on my playlist. I've been earballing some melodies for the shakuhachi and am curious if there are recordings and/or sheet music of gagaku for shakuhachi?

Am I correct or mistaken in recalling a reference that at some time and place shakuhachi was also occasionally part of gagaku orchestras?

Gagaku is great and I do love it. I have been playing Ryuteki for longer than Shakuhachi. Although I truly like to play the Ryuteki I feel that the flute is somehow limited and that traditionally it did not develop a repertoire as wide as the Shakuhachi. The Ryuteki somehow stayed withing the realm of gagaku and that is it. The flute itself is not the greatest thing to play around in fact the Nohkan is much better in tuning etc. Anyway some ryuteki players will use a Nohkan sometimes to play gagaku

I'm reluctant to take up another instrument because it would cut in on my shakuachi time, but if I did it would probably be a Nohkan. I love the sound.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#14 2009-07-23 13:37:19

Glenn Swann
Member
From: Central New Jersey
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 151
Website

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

as far as gagaku and shakuhachi, if you haven't yet found them, there is a meian honkyoku duet called "Taihei Manzai Raku" which Riley Lee, for one, has recorded, which is basically a gagaku melody for 2 shakuhachi parts. i've seen the gakufu for that in both kinko and chikuho notation. have performed it before too- has a nice stately feel to it, and isn't too technically demanding.
there is also a  modern shakuhachi duet called "Etenraku ni yoru Kotobuki no shirabe" which takes the melody for etenraku and changes it up.
in the beginning/middle of the sankyoku piece "onoe no matsu" there is a part called the "gaku no te" which switches to gagaku tuning for a bit before it goes back to more standard jiuta tuning.... fun to play and pretty.(not what one would call an easy piece tho...)

Last edited by Glenn Swann (2009-07-23 13:52:34)


I followed rivers, I followed orders,I followed prophets, I followed leaders
I followed rivers, I followed highways,I followed conscience,
I followed dreamers... And I'm back here,
and I'm back here... At the edge of the sky       (New Model Army)

Offline

 

#15 2009-07-23 14:16:42

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Glenn Swann wrote:

as far as gagaku and shakuhachi, if you haven't yet found them, there is a meian honkyoku duet called "Taihei Manzai Raku" which Riley Lee, for one, has recorded, which is basically a gagaku melody for 2 shakuhachi parts. i've seen the gakufu for that in both kinko and chikuho notation. have performed it before too- has a nice stately feel to it, and isn't too technically demanding.
there is also a  modern shakuhachi duet called "Etenraku ni yoru Kotobuki no shirabe" which takes the melody for etenraku and changes it up.
in the beginning/middle of the sankyoku piece "onoe no matsu" there is a part called the "gaku no te" which switches to gagaku tuning for a bit before it goes back to more standard jiuta tuning.... fun to play and pretty.(not what one would call an easy piece tho...)

Again Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that, I think I may have that recording by Dr. Lee.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#16 2009-07-23 17:12:45

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

ABRAXAS wrote:

Glenn Swann wrote:

as far as gagaku and shakuhachi, if you haven't yet found them, there is a meian honkyoku duet called "Taihei Manzai Raku" which Riley Lee, for one, has recorded, which is basically a gagaku melody for 2 shakuhachi parts. i've seen the gakufu for that in both kinko and chikuho notation. have performed it before too- has a nice stately feel to it, and isn't too technically demanding.
there is also a  modern shakuhachi duet called "Etenraku ni yoru Kotobuki no shirabe" which takes the melody for etenraku and changes it up.
in the beginning/middle of the sankyoku piece "onoe no matsu" there is a part called the "gaku no te" which switches to gagaku tuning for a bit before it goes back to more standard jiuta tuning.... fun to play and pretty.(not what one would call an easy piece tho...)

Again Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that, I think I may have that recording by Dr. Lee.

I have the sheet music for "Taihei Manzai Raku", written in Chikuho notation, if anyone is interested. It was given to me by Dr. Lee at a past Rockies Shakuhachi Summer Camp, wherein he put a bunch of us on the rack and made us learn Chikuho, so we could play the piece in concert. Didn't hurt too bad...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#17 2009-07-23 22:33:15

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Araki Kodo IV arranged Etenraku into a duet for shakuhachi. We (Araki-ha) played it this year in the Kinko-ryu Kyokai annual performance in Tokyo, with about 30 members. It sounded great. If people are interested I can see if there is a way to buy the notation.

Offline

 

#18 2009-07-24 20:05:44

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

In the Jin Nyodo notation set (but not the CD or LP) there is a song called "Somakusha" which is a gagaku melody transcribed for shakuhachi. It has some interesting intervals. Mitsuhashi Kifu has a nice version of it on one of his CD's.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#19 2009-07-24 21:16:34

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

I transcribed that recording of Somakusha by Kifu Mitsuhashi a while back, if I can find it I will put it up. Does anyone know where to get the notation that he played it from?

Some other notation possibilities... there are transcriptions by Sukehiro Shiba. Reigakusha are a contemporary gagaku group; maybe some of the music they perform is available in five line staff notation. I played a piece called Toru's Mist by Gavin Bryars, for shakuhachi, piano, violin and percussion. Nice piece that piece has gagaku influenced ideas in it.

Offline

 

#20 2009-07-24 21:17:05

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

In the Jin Nyodo notation set (but not the CD or LP) there is a song called "Somakusha" which is a gagaku melody transcribed for shakuhachi. It has some interesting intervals. Mitsuhashi Kifu has a nice version of it on one of his CD's.

Nice! Thanks for the heads-up on this. I have the recording but don't find the notation for SOMAKUSHA in the Kurahashi Yodo collection of Jin Nyodo scores, although I'm glad you impelled me to look because I found that collection DOES include a transcription of ETENRAKU.

And I must be severly brain-damaged because I just now remembered that you did ETENRAKU on your RYONAJI CD that I have listened to innumerable times!

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2009-07-24 21:23:51)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

Offline

 

#21 2009-07-24 21:21:27

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

ABRAXAS wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

In the Jin Nyodo notation set (but not the CD or LP) there is a song called "Somakusha" which is a gagaku melody transcribed for shakuhachi. It has some interesting intervals. Mitsuhashi Kifu has a nice version of it on one of his CD's.

Nice! Thanks for the heads-up on this. I have the recording but don't find the notation for SOMAKUSHA in the Kurahashi Yodo collection of Jin Nyodo scores, although I'm glad you impelled me to look because I found that collection DOES include a transcription of ETENRAKU.

From komuso.com, regarding Somakusha:

A version for shakuhachi of the music for this dance was created by Ono Tadatsugu in the 1920s. Ono was a member of an important family of gagaku musicians. He was also an accomplished shakuhachi player with the bamboo name (a name given to skilled shakuhachi performers) Gindo.

I wonder if he wrote anything else for shakuhachi. Its a beautiful piece.

Offline

 

#22 2009-07-25 01:42:07

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

caffeind wrote:

I transcribed that recording of Somakusha by Kifu Mitsuhashi a while back, if I can find it I will put it up. Does anyone know where to get the notation that he played it from?

.

You may have transcribed by ear but there are some weird things happening there when you look at the actual notation. The notation is part of the Jin Nyodo notation box. If you know anyone nearby, say in Tasmania, they might let you take a look at it.

ABRAXAS wrote:

Nice! Thanks for the heads-up on this. I have the recording but don't find the notation for SOMAKUSHA in the Kurahashi Yodo collection of Jin Nyodo scores, although I'm glad you impelled me to look because I found that collection DOES include a transcription of ETENRAKU.

And I must be severly brain-damaged because I just now remembered that you did ETENRAKU on your RYONAJI CD that I have listened to innumerable times!

That version of "Etenraku" is a very basic version Kurahashi Yodo did. It's nice but I think it was his work not a transcription of Jin Nyodo. Maybe ask Yoshio.

Yeah I did a "free jazz" version of it on "Ryoanji" substituting chromatic harmonica chord clusters for the sho. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#23 2009-07-25 02:06:18

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

If you know anyone nearby, say in Tasmania, they might let you take a look at it.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/Unknown.jpg


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#24 2009-07-25 02:23:57

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

caffeind wrote:

I transcribed that recording of Somakusha by Kifu Mitsuhashi a while back, if I can find it I will put it up. Does anyone know where to get the notation that he played it from?

.

You may have transcribed by ear but there are some weird things happening there when you look at the actual notation. The notation is part of the Jin Nyodo notation box. If you know anyone nearby, say in Tasmania, they might let you take a look at it.

The opportunity to inspect the original notation and correct errors in my transcription would, of course, be purely academic. Hard drives would be wiped. Prinouts burnt. Network connections severed. This conversation never even happened.

Last edited by caffeind (2009-07-25 02:26:08)

Offline

 

#25 2009-07-25 18:27:37

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Gagaku for Shakuhachi

caffeind wrote:

The opportunity to inspect the original notation and correct errors in my transcription would, of course, be purely academic. Hard drives would be wiped. Prinouts burnt. Network connections severed. This conversation never even happened.

Well........you could buy the entire Jin Nyodo set from his son for about $500 which is obviously a very reasonable price and accessible to most students, wink or you could fly down to Tasmania for about $100 on Jetstar and I'll teach you the piece. I have TWO copies of the Jin Nyodo set, and I can loan you one of them for a while. smile


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google