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#1 2009-08-12 18:19:00

rmunk
Member
Registered: 2008-01-05
Posts: 15

Breathing

I have been practicing for about a year and a half and still very confused about the breathing.  Have read about using the diaphragm to control the stream of air, but when I try to do this the stream is not continuous, broken and then no more air.   I do not understand the idea of holding the air in while breathing out, I can do it without the shakuhachi but not with.
Can some one point me in a direction that will help.  I'm banging against a wall now.

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#2 2009-08-12 19:00:59

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Breathing

I found that when I thought of trying to blow the inner part of my lips through the utaguchi and exhaling out trying to ennunciate HA it makes the breath really come from the diaphragm.  Does this make sense?  I had the same problem and this is what helped me.

Brian


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#3 2009-08-12 19:10:22

indigo
Member
From: Brooklyn, New York
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 52

Re: Breathing

hello armunk
Big subject you are raising here.  Everyone has a unique solution to the balance between the embouchure and the diaphragm along with the rest of the breath exhalation apparatus etc.  Try a search here  on the forum for "breath".  There is lots of information.  As a relative newcomer to shakuhachi I find that each day brings new challenges and new solutions to the issues of sounding.  Still so much mystery.  The only practical way is  to continue to play making sound, or not, as my teacher has said "it will come" or "don't worry".
I have found that searching the internet for information on breath support for singers helps.
Here is an interview between James Galway and Renee Flemming where they talk about some of the issues.
http://www.thegalwaynetwork.com/interviews/flemming.mp3
Andrew Mcgregor's shakuhachi site also explains some stuff.
http://www.japanworldmusic.com/misogi.htm
All of this and more has been posted before.
Try some intense exercise like intervals of 400 m on a track and then play. Interesting results for me anyway.
Best of luck with the wall.

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#4 2009-08-13 09:57:42

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Breathing

rmunk wrote:

I have been practicing for about a year and a half and still very confused about the breathing.  Have read about using the diaphragm to control the stream of air, but when I try to do this the stream is not continuous, broken and then no more air.

Hi rmunk,
This is just shakuhachi playing foundation that needs to be developed.

I do not understand the idea of holding the air in while breathing out, I can do it without the shakuhachi but not with.
Can some one point me in a direction that will help.  I'm banging against a wall now.

Try this:
Practice  blowing a continuous second octave note as long as you can and with the softest volume possible.  Any Kan note will do. Time yourself daily with a stop watch to note your progress. At some point, when you "own" this exercise, I think you will notice that your diaphragm is in control.

I should point out that the embouchure needs to develop also since it collaborates in how long you can hold the note. It's all part of the time it takes to learn how to play shakuhachi.  Enjoy the deep inhalations smile

Hope this helps, - Perry

BTW, those are great links by indigo.


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#5 2009-08-13 10:14:00

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Breathing

To approach it from a different angle, maybe your diaphram needs to be conditioned more to get the results that you desire.  Like any other motion initiating tissue in your body, the diaphram is a muscle.  Like any muscle it can be exercised and conditioned.  Now, practicing with the shakuhachi and practicing long tones can acheive a certain amount of conditioning.  However, I found that running not only increased the length of my breath but also improved the consistency.  Previously, I had a fair amount of oscillation in my tone due to unsteady exhalation from the diaphram and the inability of the diaphram to create enough pressure or control it well enough to isolate my breath from my heart beat.  After nursing a torn up ankle and getting back out onto the road to run, this has subsided to a large extent.  It makes sense to build the endurance of the diaphram, because muscles that are taxed beyond their capacity begin to flutter.  If you haven't done a situp in a long time and lay down to do a few, you may notice how the abdoiminal muscle produces tremors.  With the diaphram each one of these flutters or temors will change the pressure within the lungs, changing the sound.

I imagine any aerobic exercise would help.  You don't have to run if you don't like it or can't.

I don't think enough people make the connection between the body and the instument.  Wind instruments especially create a situation where you are literally putting something from your body into the instrument to make the sound.  In essence, your body becomes part of the instrument.  Just like cleaning your flute and keeping it in good shape, you will have to take care of your body as well, even make improvements on it, to make good bushi.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#6 2009-08-13 15:11:28

rmunk
Member
Registered: 2008-01-05
Posts: 15

Re: Breathing

Thanks for the information, and one other question.  When exhaling do you let the mouth fill with air, cheeks puffing out?

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#7 2009-08-13 15:42:15

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Breathing

The James Galway has a lot of 'what' questions but not a lot of 'how' answers. The comment on auxiliary breathing is good. His wheeze is so strong you wonder how he can blow out a candle.

Indigo's note on going for a run, or building up intensity is a good exploration and for me demonstrates how to blow from the belly and chest without restriction from the throat or mouth, then you can develop the embouchure feel.

I think there is no 'one way' to breathe as the piece or style you are playing will possibly require a variety. The lower belly is called the 'hara' and is a power source. Breathe into the belly letting it extend outso that the diaphragm extends downwards. Also practice chest breathing where the diaphragm extends sideways. Do long full in and out breathing, also do short intense braths, in time you should notice you have strengthened your overall capacity.

The vocal chords also develop in time to tighten and influence the air flow. Try singing the notes as well as blowing them, you will feel how your vocal chords come into play. The mouth cavity seems to influence the tone, along with the way you hold your lips, they can vary from an 'oo' to an 'ee' posture. This requires a lot of practice to control with precision. Also explore the tongue position, it is usually kept low just behind your lower teeth, but can be well employed for muraiki when it is raised and brought forward a little.

Lots of exploration.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#8 2009-08-13 17:22:39

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Breathing

rmunk wrote:

Thanks for the information, and one other question.  When exhaling do you let the mouth fill with air, cheeks puffing out?

No. Only whacky trumpet players like Dizzy Gillespie do that. See here:

     http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5030/blowingsmile9mq.jpg

I strongly encourage you to get a coupla lessons under your belt, and most of these questions will be put to rest.

[Edit: KURAHASHI Yoshio, is now KURAHASHI Yodo]

Last edited by edosan (2009-08-13 17:23:58)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#9 2009-08-13 20:28:28

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Breathing

edosan wrote:

rmunk wrote:

Thanks for the information, and one other question.  When exhaling do you let the mouth fill with air, cheeks puffing out?

No. Only whacky trumpet players like Dizzy Gillespie do that. See here:

     http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5030 … ile9mq.jpg

I strongly encourage you to get a coupla lessons under your belt, and most of these questions will be put to rest.

Ed, are you absolutely sure those guys cheeks are puffed out due to air pushing them out, or is it muscle tension? I suspect it's the latter.

Aside from some lessons, try Riley Lee's "Breathe" DVD ( http://www.amazon.com/Breathe-Riley-Lee … amp;sr=8-6  ) and try googling "flute + breathing + diaphragm". When it comes to braathing for instruments, some of the stuff you read and a lot of instruction, even from good teachers, might go against some other stuff you written by other reputable teachers. Part of the reason is that some approaches address how things should feel without regard to the actual body mechanics involved, and even with those that do take into consideration actual anatomy it's going to be difficult to teach to isolate the appropriate muscles and those approaches will need to go back to explaining how a proper breath should feel along with what muscles should be active.

For instance, about breathing from the diaphragm. Not that you don't breath from the diaphragm when playing an instrument, but any breathing anyone does at anytime, with or without an instrument, is going to include diaphragm involvement. I think that the general "breath from the diaphragm" statement's purpose is to get some conscious focus into the abdominal area because those are muscles you need to consciously work to play an instrument (although it can become natural and unconscious with practice). The problem with the "breath from the diaphragm" statement is that the natural, unconscioulsy taken breath we take in order to live is from the diaphragm too, but just not deep enough to play an instrument (or sing) with.

Also, since you mention that you understand what needs to be done and can do it without the shakuhachi, I second Perry's opinion that you should be looking into what's going on with your embouchure. And before frustrating yourself trying to puff your cheeks out with air while playing, check with a teacher because I suspect you'll just be wasting your time. I could be wrong though, it won't be the first time smile


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#10 2009-08-13 23:12:02

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Breathing

Those guys cheeks aren't puffed out!


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#11 2009-08-13 23:34:38

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Breathing

Yeah, I think the point Edosan was making is that all of the pictures show controlled, stable facial muscles. You shouldn't need that much pressure and wasted air for playing the shakuhachi. Even a muraiki needs more technique than just forcing out.

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#12 2009-08-14 02:16:25

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Breathing

rmunk wrote:

Thanks for the information, and one other question.  When exhaling do you let the mouth fill with air, cheeks puffing out?

Gillespie's cheeks were not puffed out, they were distended, due to a medical condition subsequently named after him.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#13 2009-08-14 03:21:28

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Breathing

Bruce Hunter wrote:

rmunk wrote:

Thanks for the information, and one other question.  When exhaling do you let the mouth fill with air, cheeks puffing out?

Gillespie's cheeks were not puffed out, they were distended, due to a medical condition subsequently named after him.

later...

Wow, I didn't know that. I googled around a bit and I found some writings that said that there is a medical condition called Gillespie's pouches, but I wonder if the condition might be because it causes people to look like Diz, and not that he had it himself. I found one webpage explaining that Diz messed up his cheek muscles by letting his cheeks expand. I also found one that said something about Diz having something wrong with his glands that caused it, however that might be a condition brought on by playing incorrectly too because I remember being told once that you can damage your eustachian tubes by puffing your cheeks when playing trumpet.

I really have to think though that even if he had a pre-existing condition before he ever even picked up the trumpet, that his cheeks were in fact puffed out when he played. I don't see how you could describe the picture on this webpage any other way: http://www.musictechteacher.com/quiz_gi … izzy01.htm From the picture on this next wikipedia page, his cheeks weren't like that all the time, so I'd say that his cheeks were indeed puffed out when he played (at least sometimes, I'm not sure he's playing in this picture): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dizzy_Gillespie

Robert Dick, a silver flute performer and pedagogist, has written that one of the reasons circular breathing is a good thing to practice is that maintaining an embouchure with puffed cheeks is good training for your embouchure. I doubt that he meant puffing the cheeks that far though, there just isn't enough back pressure with a flute to do that.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-08-14 03:29:12)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#14 2009-08-14 08:58:38

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Breathing

Only whacky trumpet players like Dizzy Gillespie do that.

If I remeber correctly from 6th grade band, of which I was a part for all of 4 months, puffy cheeks are a big no-no with nearly all instruments, according to the teacher I had at the time.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#15 2009-08-14 11:00:03

rmunk
Member
Registered: 2008-01-05
Posts: 15

Re: Breathing

"Back Pressure" that is what I'm having a hard time understanding and doing.  I have been doing Misogi Breathing (Aikido) for many years and the extended exhalation is back pressure by constricting the throat.  But very little air is expelled and not enough to create a sound with the Shakuhachi.

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#16 2009-08-14 11:38:56

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Breathing

Bruce Hunter wrote:

rmunk wrote:

Thanks for the information, and one other question.  When exhaling do you let the mouth fill with air, cheeks puffing out?

Gillespie's cheeks were not puffed out, they were distended, due to a medical condition subsequently named after him.

later...

He may've had little or no control over the condition, but how is this NOT 'puffed-out'?

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/4634348/Dizzy+Gillespie+dizzy.jpg

Tomato/TomAHto....


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#17 2009-08-14 11:39:57

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Breathing

In general, back pressure refers to the pressure created within the flute due to the narrowing of the bore near the foot.  It means the air cannot escape the flute as quickly as it is being put in.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#18 2009-08-14 12:00:03

rmunk
Member
Registered: 2008-01-05
Posts: 15

Re: Breathing

I guess my understanding is wrong or using wrong word, "back pressure".  I've read that you must "hold the air in" as your exhaling to get an extended exhalation.  How?

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#19 2009-08-14 12:12:16

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Breathing

I really think you are making things more complicated for yourself than they need to be.  Fill your lungs and push the air through your embochure.  I am having a hard time understanding what is so complicated about that.  Without the flute it is called pursed lip breathing, and you do it when you whistle.  It seems like you are really creating a much more complicated process than is necessary.  I would STRONGLY suggest setting up a lesson with a teacher, either face to face or online.  I think you are really confusing yourself a great deal.  A little more "doing" and alot less "figuring" will simplify things, I think.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#20 2009-08-14 13:01:45

rmunk
Member
Registered: 2008-01-05
Posts: 15

Re: Breathing

I think you maybe right, to much thinking.

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#21 2009-08-14 13:50:56

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Breathing

Hi rmunk,
    I recommend totally forgetting about all that holding air in while blowing out stuff. What you describing, I think, is physically impossible. If you try to do that I think it will cripple your sound and your concept of how to make a sound. The "concept" of  holding the breath in while playing  may be of use to an advanced player trying to refine his tone but for now you should think about projecting your sound out. Just blow the damn thing!
             all the best
                      Jim

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2009-08-14 13:54:50)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#22 2009-08-14 16:14:06

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Breathing

There is a 'back pressure' produced by the lips being constricted, giving control over the air speed hitting the utaguchi.
A similar technique is given to sufferers of emphysema, to breathe out while keeping the lips partially open to maintain this back pressure. This keeps the lung passages open until complete emptying, with emphysema these passages close before they are emptyed keeping air and moisture trapped.
This may demonstrate another health benefit from blowing shakuhachi.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#23 2009-08-14 16:33:42

indigo
Member
From: Brooklyn, New York
Registered: 2005-10-19
Posts: 52

Re: Breathing

Maybe  constricting the throat for breath holding is not useful.
I have been told that this can lead to imbalance of energy etc. by a serious  yoga teacher.
My intuition is that an open, relaxed throat is best for shakuhachi playing.
Usually the folks that know (in theater, voice, yoga, dance, martial art etc.) say that one should concentrate on the  lower torso  "tanden" with the minimal or appropriate use of muscular tension and muscular release. So far in my life an ever unfolding and interesting study.
I find that the image of a suspended torso is useful and that the seiza position facilitates this gentle suspension for blowing the shakuhachi
Suspension in time at the end of the inhalation and the end of exhalation is a good practice for me.
If I want a long phrase then I cannot lose all of the breath in my lungs in the first 3 seconds etc.
It took years to be able to play a note on the flute longer than  15 seconds.
Been said by Perry often that "If you can sing it, you can play it"
Furiya sensei can sing like an opera singer.
The above are some of the thoughts that run through my head when thinking about breath and playing. Therefore these  thoughts are shared as a personal constellation.

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#24 2009-08-15 03:10:12

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Breathing

Regarding letting the cheeks expand out has a stabilizing effect while sustaining higher notes. Something that will probably require practice, but I find it has a useful purpose.
The note becomes calm and steady, then the cheeks can be made more taut when you move from this note, though it is not difficult to continue through several notes while the cheeks are relaxed outwards.
It seems to change the tension in the airstream giving a softer edge and a particular smoothness.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#25 2009-08-15 06:03:08

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Breathing

Blowing thru the flute, in essence, is also like blowing thru a straw. Each note produces its own unique backpressure.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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