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#1 2009-09-25 16:32:05

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

making any sound impossible

I can play Native American flute with no problem. It uses a fipple mouthpiece. I have been trying to sound a note for months with my shakuhachi and came close only once. I know it takes much time to do this but was wondering if there are those among us who will never be able to make the correct emboucheur (mouth position) due to anatomical issues (I simply can't make that little slit with my mouth).

I also tend to whistle when trying to form the correct lip position and have no clue where to place my tongue, which seems to produce the whistle.

I bought a fipple mouthpiece from the Yuu people to use with my shakuhachi and it sounds lovely (so the flute works) but, of course, does not have that woody sounds and variations that make a true shakuhachi so distinctive.

I live nowhere close to a teacher, have seen all the YouTube videos, and am ready to give up.

Anyone have this problem and solved it?

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-09-25 16:34:11)

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#2 2009-09-25 17:31:05

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: making any sound impossible

Try moving your lips closer or farther from the utaguchi. Also try making a noise with no holes closed(the easiest to do).Next, try(with your mouth on the mouthpiece) moving the bottom farther or closer to you to make a sound. Finally, don't try so hard . You should be able to make a sound with relaxed lips with just a small smile.

Last edited by purehappiness (2009-09-25 17:38:08)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#3 2009-09-25 17:56:35

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: making any sound impossible

Welcome Todd --

This is more than likely something that could be solved very quickly with an online (live video) lesson. There are several people here who teach live computer lessons, including Ronnie Nyogetsu Seldin, Michael Chikuzen Gould, Alcvin Ramos, and myself (there may be others I'm not remembering). Online lessons work very well.

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#4 2009-09-25 18:53:33

Rob Bondy
Member
Registered: 2009-08-30
Posts: 52
Website

Re: making any sound impossible

Hi Todd,

I am new at this as well.  I had my shakuhachi for some time before I could get a sound, but it did click.  I recently did a class with Michael Gould and it really helped.

Here is a link I found that was very useful for "finding" that first note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZlVXynkGes

Also, there are days when I just can't hit Ro at the start of practice. 

GL

Rob


"Every day is a good day" -Ummon

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#5 2009-09-25 21:08:53

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: making any sound impossible

nyokai wrote:

This is more than likely something that could be solved very quickly with an online (live video) lesson. There are several people here who teach live computer lessons, including Ronnie Nyogetsu Seldin, Michael Chikuzen Gould, Alcvin Ramos, and myself (there may be others I'm not remembering). Online lessons work very well.

Not that it needs emphasis, but I want to emphasize this.

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#6 2009-09-25 21:09:37

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: making any sound impossible

Thank you all, and sorry for the beginner question. 

On-line lessons would be excellent but I need to get the equipment and find a better internet service first...sometime early next year.

Nyokai, I will check with you when I'm ready.

This is a great challenge. I'll keep at it.

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#7 2009-09-25 21:23:20

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: making any sound impossible

Rob Bondy wrote:

Hi Todd,

I am new at this as well.  I had my shakuhachi for some time before I could get a sound, but it did click.  I recently did a class with Michael Gould and it really helped.

Here is a link I found that was very useful for "finding" that first note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZlVXynkGes

Also, there are days when I just can't hit Ro at the start of practice. 

GL

Rob

That link, and another (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRS49JqD … re=related), have already been presented to Todd earlier.

You can just keep plugging at it, reviewing those two videos a few more times, or you can try to get a teacher online. Also, make sure you're trying it with ALL holes open at least some of the time–makes the whole thing a bit easier. I think I mentioned this along with those links. At this point, I recommend the teacher route. You seem to be stuck, but take heart; sometimes, for some people, it just takes a while, and then they get it. Nothing like a live human showing how to do it, though.

One last thing: sit in a chair, up nice and straight, with your flute in your lap, and quietly say this: "Peh..."  "Peh..." Not "Pooh..." Not "Paah...", just "Peh..." [don't laugh, you people...]. Then say it with no vocalization. What you get is a close approximation of the shape of your mouth and lips in preparing your embouchure. If you're doing any of those other sounds, don't.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2009-09-25 23:45:04

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: making any sound impossible

I've been working with mouth shape and position on the flute. I got a few good steady notes (Ro?) with no holes covered tonight, but lost them. I am getting closer. One was so strong it startled me and then vanished like a wispy little cloud. My lower lip is a touch inward from my upper lip and I've been working on keeping lower lip even with upper and creating a thin opening. That's when I got the note. Your suggestions are appreciated.  A teacher would be excellent, of course, but my son was married last Saturday and money is scarce....in a few months. Thank you.

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#9 2009-09-26 03:54:16

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: making any sound impossible

Hi there,

there is another Trick at the beginnig my teacher told me:

First of all forgot all the mouth shaping and so on, then grap your shakuhachi and hold it nearly straight to your mouth and place the utaguchi right between your lips and then just breath out with no hole covered... You can adjust the position of the Shakuhachi by put it higher or lower.

I show that to my brother and other guys that never played any flute or something and they all make a sound in minutes. I also needed weeks to make a sound so dont worry.

Ps.: Sry, for my bad english, if there is an issue I will post a pic of this position but it really helps alot.


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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#10 2009-09-26 06:22:46

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: making any sound impossible

Once you get a sound don't move and keep that position. Even moving your mouth a little can make a big difference. you will get it.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#11 2009-09-26 10:25:14

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: making any sound impossible

Christopher...your English is very good and thanks for the mouth position tip. I'll try that now. Edosan...thanks for the 'peh' tip. That's when I started to get the sound. Purehappiness...don't I know about slight movements from the tiny sound spot...it's gone and doesn't return (I lived in Connecticut for two years while at grad school. Where are you there?). 

All your ideas have given me new energy to keep at this. Thanks.

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#12 2009-09-26 10:30:30

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: making any sound impossible

christopher....I just tried that and got a good sound almost every time. I just move the shakuhachi up and down and blow softly and there is a sweet spot that produces the sound. I can't keep the sound going yet but that got it going at least. Much thanks.

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-09-26 10:32:15)

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#13 2009-09-26 17:03:51

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: making any sound impossible

Yeah, no problem I am happy that it helps.

After your figure it out once, it will work very well all the time and you can slowly go down to "RO". Your lips will become more relaxed and you will get your embrouche just natural. Dont give it up, it had take month for me to get a sound.

Best wishes and dont run out of air smile


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know that life is a dream? Cause there is a way to wake up!
http://naturalbreath.wordpress.com/

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