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#1 2009-10-02 12:48:23

Yu-Jin
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2005-11-30
Posts: 108

Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

Hi everybody,

what is the difference between kyoku, sugagaki and shirabe pieces? What other types of pieces exist? Do 'jishi" pieces exist as a separate group? Perhaps it was discussed somewhere but I didn't find

Thanks a lot!
E.

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#2 2009-10-07 13:01:20

chattemao
Member
Registered: 2009-01-19
Posts: 32

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

kyoku 虛空 
sugagaki  (巢籠) sorry , i made a mistake  , sugagaki is 菅垣 
shirabe   調子

shiji?   獅子 ?  i dont think shiji is a separate one ,  there is azuma shiji  吾妻獅子  komoi jishi  云井獅子

Last edited by chattemao (2009-10-08 01:09:23)


J' aime Dozan Fujiwara 藤原道山

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#3 2009-10-07 19:36:04

Yu-Jin
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2005-11-30
Posts: 108

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

Thank you. What makes a piece "kyoku" as opposed to "sugagaki" for example? Are there any criteria when you can name a piece sugagaki or kyoku?

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#4 2009-10-07 21:46:56

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

Yu-Jin wrote:

Hi everybody,

what is the difference between kyoku, sugagaki and shirabe pieces? What other types of pieces exist? Do 'jishi" pieces exist as a separate group? Perhaps it was discussed somewhere but I didn't find

Thanks a lot!
E.

Found in the forum search engine using 'sugagaki':

Sugagaki    The term Sugagaki, when used in Shakuhachi music, simply means pieces which are unrelated to the Fuke legend. The term Sugagaki also refers to a technique used in solo Koto music without voice.

Here's the thread:
     http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?pid=23101

----------------

Also, from komuso.com (via John Singer, who has a lot of historical material on his site):
"The original meaning of the term "Sugagaki" was to play stringed instruments without voice. Numerous Shakuhachi pieces have "Sugagaki" attached to their names as a suffix such as "Akita Sugagaki" and "Sanya Sugagaki". Shakuhachi pieces having this suffix attached to them originated from stringed instrument (Koto and Shamisen) music."

---------------

Komuso.com has a good search engine, and a vast amount of information on it. Always a good idea to have a look there prior to bringing a question like this to the forum.

For example, if you enter 'jishi' into the search field, you'll get many pages of 'jishi' related stuff, and if you select the link 'Kumoi Jishi' you'll get this big fat page:

       http://www.komuso.com/pieces/Kumoi_Jishi.html

Same goes for 'kyoku' and 'shirabe'.

Last edited by edosan (2009-10-07 22:06:28)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2009-10-08 01:29:06

chattemao
Member
Registered: 2009-01-19
Posts: 32

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

Yu-Jin wrote:

Thank you. What makes a piece "kyoku" as opposed to "sugagaki" for example? Are there any criteria when you can name a piece sugagaki or kyoku?

there are lots of Kyoku versions  and XXX sugagaki .  i have never think about the question you asked .  to me ,  Kyoku is Kyoku .


J' aime Dozan Fujiwara 藤原道山

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#6 2009-10-08 02:56:53

Yu-Jin
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2005-11-30
Posts: 108

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

edosan, chattemao
Thank you

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#7 2009-10-08 03:50:00

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

Yu-Jin wrote:

Thank you. What makes a piece "kyoku" as opposed to "sugagaki" for example? Are there any criteria when you can name a piece sugagaki or kyoku?

For myself, I think it's pretty fruitless to try to sort out the mysteries of Japanese naming systems--assuming there even IS a coherent system. Just play the pieces you enjoy, and let the names fall where they may. Kyoku just means 'song', or 'piece of music', so it could be attached to nearly anything except old honkyoku. The 'jishi' pieces are more melodic and measured, and the 'sugagaki' pieces seem to emanate from the koto tradition. Some of them are more melodic and measured as well (Sanya Sugagaki, for example). The lines don't seem to be very sharp.

During the 1998 WSF in Boulder, CO, one of the Japanese participants, an historian of things shakuhachi, presented a paper called 'What is a Sugagaki?' I didn't get in on that one, but if the Japanese have to worry about how it fits, what good is it for use to delve into it?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2009-10-08 06:31:02

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

edosan wrote:

During the 1998 WSF in Boulder, CO, one of the Japanese participants, an historian of things shakuhachi, presented a paper called 'What is a Sugagaki?' I didn't get in on that one, but if the Japanese have to worry about how it fits, what good is it for use to delve into it?

Hi Ed
Any ideas how I can get hold of that paper?

Thanks

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#9 2009-10-08 12:06:05

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Kyoiku vs. shirabe vs. sugagaki

Justin wrote:

edosan wrote:

During the 1998 WSF in Boulder, CO, one of the Japanese participants, an historian of things shakuhachi, presented a paper called 'What is a Sugagaki?' I didn't get in on that one, but if the Japanese have to worry about how it fits, what good is it for use to delve into it?

Hi Ed
Any ideas how I can get hold of that paper?

Thanks

[See, even Japanese-speaking Justin-san wants to know WTF a sugagaki is smile ]

I have devoted some search energy to finding it without result, Justin. I will try to find out the author's name from a friend who was present at the festival in Boulder.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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