Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

takaboshi · 2008-03-25 11:03:07

Kiku Day · 2009-10-31 08:29:44

Since the score of 'Moment' is here, I thought I'd post this fantastic Fujiwara Dozan and Kenny G video here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Znr35b1wY

Tairaku 太楽 · 2009-10-31 14:40:05

Kiku Day wrote:
and Kenny G video here!

Is he playing G-nashi?

Kiku Day · 2009-10-31 16:18:09

Tairaku wrote:
Is he playing G-nashi?

It MUST be! I mean... A shakuhachi Kenny G duo... I never thought THAT would possibly happen.... so ........ I'd say it is a G-ari while here in this case I would swear to G-nashi!

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-10-31 16:23:12)

edosan · 2009-10-31 16:46:26

Tairaku wrote:
Kiku Day wrote:
and Kenny G video here!
Is he playing G-nashi?

Got a big silver joint on it, so I'll bet it's jiari; hard to get such a fat, edgy sound out of most jinashi, anyway

[BTW: if you look sharp, you can see the joint at about 32-35 seconds]

Also, note the excellent VERTICAL head vibrato, Tairaku........

Last edited by edosan (2009-10-31 17:10:00)

Tairaku 太楽 · 2009-10-31 23:29:00

edosan wrote:
Tairaku wrote:
Kiku Day wrote:
and Kenny G video here!
Is he playing G-nashi?
Got a big silver joint on it, so I'll bet it's jiari; hard to get such a fat, edgy sound out of most jinashi, anyway

[BTW: if you look sharp, you can see the joint at about 32-35 seconds]

Also, note the excellent VERTICAL head vibrato, Tairaku........

I was talking about Kenny G, I know Dozan plays jiari. I think all the Tozan dudes do.

As far as looking at the video to see the vibrato. Would I have to listen to and watch Kenny G. to do that? Because then I think I'll just take your word for it.

edosan · 2009-11-01 00:08:18

Tairaku wrote:
As far as looking at the video to see the vibrato. Would I have to listen to and watch Kenny G. to do that? Because then I think I'll just take your word for it.

I completely understand. One doesn't need that sort of pain. I only did it for the cause.

Kiku Day · 2009-11-01 04:08:16

There is absolutely no doubt what Dozan plays. Just listen to the sound! I was just joking around about the preference of Kenny G-nashi pieces...

Tairaku, Kenney G only comes in at the end so you have Dozan and piano for most of the video....

I find the video quite interesting. Is this what mainstream shakuhachi in Japan is going towards? No doubt Dozan is an amazingly skilled player and he is for me THE guy with most accuracy in pitch I have ever listened to on a shakuhachi (seconded very closely by Neptune). But for what? What does shakuhachi gain by playing this? And what adds to the shakuhachi repertoire with a Kenny G duo? I find pondering on this interesting and I found the video clip when I was searching for things to show the students at SOAS (university) in the course I teach called 'Marketing traditional Japanese music'. I might show the students this clip. And this too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaMrlk2cr2c&NR=1 and say that's what you need to play to get on Japanese TV as a shakuhachi player... SHakuhachi is no longer 'dasai' you can play Amazing Grace on it! Sigh!

Perhaps people have clearer answers to the questions than me.
When I look at the score kindly posted by Takaboshi, it reminds me of exercises for flute I did as a kid. What does an instrument like the shakuhachi with such a great repertoire gain from playing this? But I play new music too.... so perhaps the answer just lies in the difference in aesthetics. And aesthetics cannot really be discussed, as Abraxas once wrote: De gustibus non est disputandum. And I am just being a snob (or knob)!

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-11-01 04:23:08)

Tairaku 太楽 · 2009-11-01 05:04:24

At one time sankyoku was like doing Kenny G, that's why it's called gaikyoku.

Kiku Day · 2009-11-01 08:18:58

Tairaku wrote:
At one time sankyoku was like doing Kenny G, that's why it's called gaikyoku.

Imagine if doing Kenny G would be to shakuhachi in 80 years time what sankyoku is today...

radi0gnome · 2009-11-01 10:50:57

Yikes! More Kenny G. bashing... but maybe I'm just biased because my first impressions of him was from when I heard him in Jeff Lorber's Fusion group around 1980, he was doing some good stuff back then.

But aside from that, I just took to trying to play this song and the first thing I notice are the alternate fingerings for the Eb (I'd call it tsu meri but I'm not sure that's what it is called with that fingering) and the kan Bb. Does anyone have any comments about these? It looks like they're great alternate fingerings for non-traditional pieces where the tonality change of the meri notes isn't a necessity and the head angle shifts make for excessive technical difficulty, like in jazz improvisations in the key of Eb.

The first Eb like that (closing only holes 1, 2, and 3) is on the 1st page that I'm reposting below. The kan Bb (holes 1 4 and 5 closed) doesn't occur until almost the end. I've got to kari quite a bit to get that Eb fingering in pitch.
http://shaku8.tosaint.com/attachment/QDA1206241114.jpg

geni · 2009-11-01 11:08:15

congrats to Dozan. (hopefully he got a nice check for it ;-)

nyokai · 2009-11-01 11:21:15

Sankyoku is to Kenny G's music as a painting is to a greeting card. I doubt that ANYONE will be playing Kenny G[aikyoku] in 80 years -- but of course you can't underestimate the marketing potential of hipster irony.

That's less a put-down than it sounds, and I do not consider it snobbery. Some music is created to fulfill the supplier-driven craving for cultural sugar and fat -- in other words, it's musical fast food. Do it on shakuhachi and it's fast food with a little bit of "secret ingredient." That's OK, some very skilled musicians work this area. But it is different from work that attempts to explore new territory, to evoke moods deeper than nostalgia, and to fascinate on an intellectual as well as emotional level. Yes, I believe in cultural relativism, and yes, some assessments of quality are simply a matter of taste. But when it comes to the artistic *intent* of musical pieces, there are some genuine differences.

But more importantly for this forum, Radiognome's questions about the alternate fingerings. The alternate fingering given for E-flat is a good way to get a loud E-flat, necessary for the sense of the melody. A tsu-meri would be weird stylistically. The alternate B-flat is a quicker way than using hi meri, but I have found that it won't work on all flutes.

Last edited by nyokai (2009-11-01 11:30:51)

Kiku Day · 2009-11-01 11:50:01

radi0gnome wrote:
I just took to trying to play this song and the first thing I notice are the alternate fingerings for the Eb (I'd call it tsu meri but I'm not sure that's what it is called with that fingering) and the kan Bb. Does anyone have any comments about these? It looks like they're great alternate fingerings for non-traditional pieces where the tonality change of the meri notes isn't a necessity and the head angle shifts make for excessive technical difficulty, like in jazz improvisations in the key of Eb.

The first Eb like that (closing only holes 1, 2, and 3) is on the 1st page that I'm reposting below. The kan Bb (holes 1 4 and 5 closed) doesn't occur until almost the end. I've got to kari quite a bit to get that Eb fingering in pitch.
http://shaku8.tosaint.com/attachment/QDA1206241114.jpg

The Eb with holes 1,2,3 closed needs an extreme kari position. Try to kari up till you get the same note as tsu no meri. This fingering is used several times in Okuda's honkyoku. One example is Tamuke, but it also occurs in others. Okuda calls it hi ヒ but... his notation is unique anyway...

Also the Bb exists in honkyoku - for example also in Tamuke. I have learned it as 3 open and the rest closed, but it can be done with 2 open too. It should normally be played in kari position. As Nyokai wrote, it may depend on the flute - although most of mine are doing this note fine. In Okuda's notation it is called i (ee) 井.

edosan · 2009-11-01 12:56:26

Kiku Day wrote:
In Okuda's notation it is called i (ee) 井.

It's also commonly called 'Ro-kari', as it's a half-step up from Ro. Okuda's nomenclature makes more sense to me, since it's actually an I fingering, kari'd up a half step. But hey, it's shakuhachi notation, so everything must have at least two or three names

Last edited by edosan (2009-11-01 12:57:19)

rpowers · 2009-11-01 14:38:09

Tairaku wrote:
At one time sankyoku was like doing Kenny G, that's why it's called gaikyoku.

Could we have a moratorium on the phrase, "doing Kenny G" ?

Tairaku 太楽 · 2009-11-01 20:53:51

If you use Ed's "search" you can probably find other posts by me where I am defending Mr. G. I think it's a great accomplishment to get the public to listen to instrumental music of any kind. And he's a reasonably good player.

Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

#1 2008-03-25 11:03:07

the moment by fujiwara dozan

#2 2009-10-31 08:29:44

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

#3 2009-10-31 14:40:05

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

Kiku Day wrote:

#4 2009-10-31 16:18:09

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

Tairaku wrote:

#5 2009-10-31 16:46:26

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

Tairaku wrote:

Kiku Day wrote:

#6 2009-10-31 23:29:00

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

edosan wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Kiku Day wrote:

#7 2009-11-01 00:08:18

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

Tairaku wrote:

#8 2009-11-01 04:08:16

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

#9 2009-11-01 05:04:24

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

#10 2009-11-01 08:18:58

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

Tairaku wrote:

#11 2009-11-01 10:50:57

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

#12 2009-11-01 11:08:15

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

#13 2009-11-01 11:21:15

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

#14 2009-11-01 11:50:01

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

radi0gnome wrote:

#15 2009-11-01 12:56:26

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

Kiku Day wrote:

#16 2009-11-01 14:38:09

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

Tairaku wrote:

#17 2009-11-01 20:53:51

Re: the moment by fujiwara dozan

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