Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

  • Index
  •  » Practice
  •  » Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

#1 2009-10-26 21:39:57

adamsdp
Member
Registered: 2009-10-26
Posts: 1

Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Hi,

I am new to playing the shakuhachi and am thinking of getting a Yuu and the book by Masayuki Koga, SHAKUHACHI: Japanese Bamboo Flute and was wondering what the listmembers think of the choices.  I probably will be a casual player and the only musical experience I have is with an alto recorder.  I am a zen practitioner and looking to complement my practice with an art activity and think the shakuhachi is a nice choice.  Thanks,

Dave

Last edited by adamsdp (2009-10-26 21:40:20)

Offline

 

#2 2009-10-26 23:18:55

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 145

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

hey there,

welcome to the forum!!! 

i've got Koga's book and it's pretty good.  but it's no substitute for a teacher.  this is not the type of instrument that you can REALLY learn on your own.  I know, i play 16 instruments and this is the ONLY one that i've ever taken lessons on.  i'd suggest any one of our teachers here...lots of them do internet lessons.  even if it's only a couple to get your feet wet.

and by the way.....try the search function....it will come in handy......and you won't get your knuckles tapped by edosan!!!   smile

don't worry if you don't know what that means....you will soon enough   LOL

again....welcome aboard!!

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

Offline

 

#3 2009-10-27 00:32:13

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

We don't tap...we thrash...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#4 2009-10-27 02:24:46

Lanier flutes
Member
From: Japan
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 32

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Welcome to the forum.  The yuu is a good choice, much better than most of the low cost options such as the standard pvc or the wooden (chair leg) shakuhachi; I'd also recommend Christopher Blasdel's The Shakuhachi: A Manual for Learning.


"And the music of humans means bamboo pipes singing"            Yen-cheng  Tzu-yu

Offline

 

#5 2009-11-11 20:48:14

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

I keep reading that nothing is better than learning from a teacher. I agree. But...what about us who live 200+ miles from a good teacher, and who may not be able to afford a good teacher, and who do not have computer live video teaching equipment or can not afford it?

I am looking for some good CDs showing mouth shape and flute position, breath force, and everything else a beginner needs to know about the mechanics of playing a shakuhachi...which has nothing to do with taking a tea break.

With my flute, I can get a fleeting note once in a blue moon, but my Yuu fipple mouthpiece attachment never misses a note.

I wish that there was a place on this forum where all of us frustrated beginners could get some solid suggestions about how the mechanics of these flute work. 

I keep trying to use my own mouth to play this flute but, until then, I will simply enjoy the Yuu fipple mouthpiece with my very fine shakuhachi. Thank you Yuu.

Offline

 

#6 2009-11-11 22:13:51

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Todd Frederick wrote:

my Yuu fipple mouthpiece attachment never misses a note.

Throw that thing in the nearest dust bin. Really. Now. Just get up and do it. Now.

Someday, you'll thank me. Not now, but someday, yes.

After you do that (do it now...), watch this (there was a second one, but I see it's been removed):

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRS49JqD … re=related

This may also be of some use:

     http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5030 … ile9mq.jpg

Have you thrown it away yet?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#7 2009-11-11 23:59:40

Jam
Member
From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Nothing that's worth doing comes easy. Edosan's right, you just gotta persevere with it.

Luckily the internet is a wonderful resource. I imagine trying to learn shakuhachi as a beginner now is a hell of a lot easier than it would have been 50 odd years ago, no books on the subject (as far as I know...) and no teachers outside of Japan I'd wager.

Oh and as for frustration, I've been playing 2 and a half years, some days I get frustrated too. You just gotta keep blowing man..

Offline

 

#8 2009-11-12 00:43:04

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Todd Frederick wrote:

I keep reading that nothing is better than learning from a teacher. I agree. But...what about us who live 200+ miles from a good teacher, and who may not be able to afford a good teacher, and who do not have computer live video teaching equipment or can not afford it?

Hi Todd
I believe the best option in your case might be to save up some money and make your way to one of the shakuhachi "camps", such as the ones run by Michael Chikuzen Gould, where you can train for several days under a well qualified teacher. Compared to reading about it, that will be like jumping into warp speed, so to speak.

A search on the forum or the net should give you more info on such camps.
Hope it goes well for you.

Offline

 

#9 2009-11-12 02:06:17

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Welcome to the forum Dave.

I've been playing the shakuhachi for a year now and I have been documenting my progress and discoveries in a blog (you can find the link below).  One thing I know for sure is that this is a difficult instrument to learn but that having a good teacher makes the process of learning infinitely more efficient and a lot less lonely.

Like you I also started out by gathering a lot of information from the web and some from print materials and sound files. But this method seemed somewhat disjointed and felt very much like trial and error.  I now take lessons, twice a month, via Skype with Michael Gould.  The lessons don't really cost much, relatively speaking, but they are priceless, in my opinion, and there's a good chance that without the lessons, I might have lost my motivation to learn to play this wonderful instrument.

Offline

 

#10 2009-11-12 09:49:07

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Hi Dave,

I've only been at this a couple of years, so I am a beginner like you.  I started off with the same book you are curious about.  It has lots of pieces in it, mosltly folk tunes.  I don't really love it to be honest, but it is useful to have.  The Blasdel book, on the other hand, I find to be fantastic, though it is not for pure beginner.  It has lots of great exercises and is clearly presented.  Nothing in shakuhachi-land comes cheap, sadly.  This includes lessons.  But I would seriously consider trying out some lessons if you can, even if it is once per month.  The teacher will help you to improve and perhaps more importantly, correct bad habits. 

Now to the main reason I decided to write... please listen to edosan.  Take that fipple thing and toss it.  Seriously.  It will not help you, not even one bit.  That thing takes a shakuhachi and turns it into something else.  The more you rely on it the less you will be learning shakuhachi.  It is a hard instrument and it will be years before you can pick up the flute at any time and pull off the notes you want in a way that sounds beautiful.  Trust me, that utaguchi-toy is a crutch you do not want to become dependant on.  Better to suck, but to own it yourself, than to sound good by cheating.  I'm assuming that something in the shakuachi sound/aesthetic drew you to it.  Just be patient and stick with it.  If you wanted something easier with no voicing problems then Native American Flute probably fits that bill.  It can also have a nice sound (but not as nice as shakuhachi of course).


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

Offline

 

#11 2009-11-12 11:19:43

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Well? Have you tossed it yet?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#12 2009-11-12 16:36:29

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Edosan,

The Yuu mouthpiece converts the shakuhachi into a simple flute similar to the Native American Flutes. I have a cedar Native flute that I play. The fipple does not give the earthy sounds as when made by the mouth but it is enjoyable. When I can make my mouth become a tiny slit and I make consistent notes I will toss it away. I'll let you know.

Actually it serves a useful purpose. I spend about a half hour practicing embouchure without the mouthpiece and then a half hour fingering practice using the mouthpiece.

I have seen almost every blowing lesson I can find on the internet, both video and written. I have not seen the second one you posted however...of the embouchure positions. I try to copy those.

I do practice without the mouthpiece and very occasionally make a fleeting note. The workshop idea might be a good idea.

I live about 150 miles from Berkeley CA and there is a teacher there. Maybe a few lessons there might be possible. I live in the central valley of California. Even the music stores in San Jose don't know what I'm talking about!

I'll keep at it. I'd also like to find a good DVD of comprehensive lessons for beginners. I agree, trying to use a book doesn't work.

I've written here before about this hurdle, and appreciate the added suggestions.

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-12 17:16:06)

Offline

 

#13 2009-11-12 17:48:56

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

When I was first starting and frustrated the fripple for my Yuu taught me an important lesson. It is about gentle breath, not blowing hard. I got much less dizzy from blowing hard after that realization. Once you realize that, there is no reason to use the fripple. Throw it away or just play the Native American flute, which I also do as I especially love the NAF drone.


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

Offline

 

#14 2009-11-12 21:18:47

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

jamesnyman said: "Throw it away or just play the Native American flute, which I also do as I especially love the NAF drone."

I think I agree.

I won't throw away the the Yuu mouthpiece adapter but will work with the Native American style for meditation.

I take time everyday to work with Shakuhachi playing techniques and that will continue, to my wife's great distress....lol

However, I started about 10 years ago with an Irish Penney Whistle, to a Cedar Native American Flute, to a Xiao, to a side blown flute, but  those I have the greatest success with are the Cedar Native American Flute and the Schakuhachi with the Yuu adapter mouthpiece.

I play these flutes as a central part of my daily meditation, not to perform or to master a traditional instrument.

I need flutes I can play without having to think while meditating, so I think that James' recommendation to stay with the Native American Flute (and my modified Shakuhachi with the mouthpiece adapter) is the way to go, until I learn the embouchure needed to play a traditional Shakuhachi properly.

Thank you again for your time and suggestions and the links (which help greatly). I ask these question to seek your guidance. 

Blessings, Todd

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-12 21:36:17)

Offline

 

#15 2009-11-13 01:38:35

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Todd Frederick wrote:

I need flutes I can play without having to think while meditating, so I think that James' recommendation to stay with the Native American Flute (and my modified Shakuhachi with the mouthpiece adapter) is the way to go, until I learn the embouchure needed to play a traditional Shakuhachi properly.

I think the point here that we're rather fumblingly trying to get across (at least speaking for myself), is that when you put the fipple mouthpiece
on the Yuu, it just becomese a NAF with 5 holes in it. You are simply retarding any progress you're making on the shakuhachi by doing that, whether you care about achieving any mastery of it or not. Some people just take longer than others to get a working sound out of it.

The embouchure required to play a fippled flute has only a vague resemblance to that required for shakuhachi, in fact, it's a stretch to even call it
an embouchure.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#16 2009-11-13 08:36:06

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

I need flutes I can play without having to think while meditating

And, I'd say that meditation does not have to be thoughtlessness.  Meditation techniques such as Hua Tau and other koans are centered on great striving, albeit through focused concentration, for realisation.  Becoming absorbed in a sound can also be a meditation technique, but there is no reason why making the sound needs to be easy.  Instead of reassessing your position on shakuhachi, maybe you should reassess your position on meditation and what it is.  I even think there is a sutra reference somewhere in which the Buddha states that those who strive for thoughtlessness through meditation are barking up the wrong tree, but I don't memorize much of those.  I want to say Lankavatara.  Just something to consider.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

Offline

 

#17 2009-11-13 13:08:25

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Shakuhachi with fipple is NAF. My shakuhachi with fipple has a deeper tone than my cedar NAF. I like that.

I would give anything (if I had anything to give) to be able to make a consistent note on the shakuhachi. I'm just not making the correct mouth shape. I think there is a problem with my natural mouth shape. Last night I did get a few distinct notes (holes uncovered) but they vanished. I did get the sound when blowing softly and the sound was loud. Jamesnyman...That's a good suggestion

I agree with you all on the effort needed. I will keep trying. It's got to be possible. Others seem to do it with ease. It's the mild smile I seem to have problems with. It becomes very painful.

I like using my shakuhachi because it is so beautiful. I'm just a beginner. Suzuki says being a beginner is good. All things are possible.

Lowonthetotem...I love your avatar!

Edosan...the websites you gave me do help. Better than most. Thank you.

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-13 13:14:47)

Offline

 

#18 2009-11-13 17:32:14

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Five minutes with a good teacher and you will be playing the first five notes in Otsu, I promise!

Offline

 

#19 2009-11-13 19:25:43

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Thank you, I know a teacher is important but can't drive 200 miles on a regular basis.

However...I GOT IT.

The issue IS anatomical.

My upper lip extends a bit out from my lower lip and I kept blowing down. I just tried to move my lower lip out a touch to be parallel with my upper lip and caught an extended note, made two more notes up the scale, took the flute away, brought it back and caught the notes again. It's almost like making a very small smiling pout.

I know a teacher would see that. I used a mirror and my finger to check the direction of my breath. Now it moves straight over the utaguchi.

Thanks for pushing me on this. I'll keep you posted.

It worked again, every time. I just adjust the flute angle.  Nirvana ;>)

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-13 19:34:57)

Offline

 

#20 2009-11-13 20:02:26

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Good, good, good!

Coupla other things to try/think about as you continue to refine this process:

     The angle of the flute relative to your head is, of course, important: make sure that you're keeping your head upright, and maintaining
     good posture. People often tend at first to drop their head forward/downward a bit when trying to get a sound. Even people who've played
     for some time continue to do this. Unh-unh.

     Sit or stand facing a mirror (if you're not already doing this) to see where everything is 'at'. Often just the proprioceptive cues of your
     body are not telling you where everything actually is.

     The pressure of the flute against your chin is also an important variable. Play around with that a bit as you home in on the sound, and
     even after you have a consistent sound. Not only will this affect sound production, but also pitch.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#21 2009-11-13 20:43:36

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Yes. Now I realize that I must avoid being tense. If I get tense I must stop and try again later. Just a relaxed pressure is needed and I do not need to tighten my facial muscles too much or hold the flute too tight. When I relax, and don't worry, and breathe softly, the sound comes...sometimes immediately and often after a few minutes, but it comes...it just seems to come...single simple steps.  Remember, this is my first day of success after many months.

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-13 20:44:44)

Offline

 

#22 2009-11-14 02:02:46

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Sweet!  Way to go.  It feels so good when it starts working, eh?

Offline

 

#23 2009-11-14 17:25:49

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Yes. I don't know why but now I can produce sound every time I place my shakuhachi to my lips (not perfect, of course, but sound), and can move up and down the scale. Why now and not before, I wonder. I did learn some things in this: you can't learn if from a book, you need to blow and blow and blow, and each mouth is probably different (I just hit upon my problem and resolved it), and, the less tense I am the better the sound. Amazing. Thanks again for the help and, Adamsdp, sorry to hijack your thread.

Airin...I was just reading your blog and have it bookmarked. Truly fine. Thinking about your neighbors and your shakuhachi playing, when I first got the scale going today my dogs howled. Not sure if that's approval or not. They finally settled in but my wife wants me to practice at the far end of the neighbor's cornfield! She prefers country western. :>)

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-14 19:37:28)

Offline

 

#24 2009-11-16 06:59:13

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

The slightest change in lip position can make a world of difference. That is probably what happened. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

Offline

 

#25 2009-11-16 15:15:16

airin
Member
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: 2008-10-17
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Todd, for me the dog howling means progress!

Glad to read of your success.  Head for that cornfield and keep practicing.  Learning to play the shakuhachi is a lot of work but so very rewarding.

Last edited by airin (2009-11-16 22:03:43)

Offline

 
  • Index
  •  » Practice
  •  » Beginner shakuhachi & book - Yuu and Masayuki Koga- Japanese Flute

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google