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#26 2009-12-06 00:29:45

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

I will test it tomorrow!  Too drunk to spill sake now smile


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#27 2009-12-06 04:00:12

Jam
Member
From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Tairaku wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

Is there a new copy technology that holds the toner ink firmly to the paper so it doesn't run ... say, if you just happened to spill a bottle of saké on it?

Not funny..........I just played at the Royal Institute of Architects and one of the architectural KNOBS spilled red wine on my much discussed super expensive Jin Nyodo notation! sad

Did you get it out with white wine?

Seriously though, I hope he offered to pay?

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#28 2009-12-06 13:36:56

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Tairaku wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

Is there a new copy technology that holds the toner ink firmly to the paper so it doesn't run ... say, if you just happened to spill a bottle of saké on it?

Not funny..........I just played at the Royal Institute of Architects and one of the architectural KNOBS spilled red wine on my much discussed super expensive Jin Nyodo notation! sad

Is he is now wearing his privates around his neck?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#29 2009-12-06 15:06:06

Matt Lyon
Member
From: North Eastern Oregon
Registered: 2009-06-30
Posts: 92

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Kiku Day wrote:

I know he regards some as just study pieces.....    There are lots of details in such a project. Also the liner notes and explanations etc. There would be a lot of work in it.

Kiku,

It might be interesting to include some of the "study pieces" in a stand alone CD and booklet. It could be useful to include them to help with some of the techniques and different breath and tone sounds that may be there. It could also help in how many liner notes and explanations are in the main production as then you would only need to make a short reference to them. I am not suggesting another how to play shakuhachi book that will try to replace a teacher but it may help make some of the scores and explanations cleaner on the page and easier to follow. It may even be helpful in explaining his style and some of the "why" questions instead of just the "how".


Matt

Last edited by Matt Lyon (2009-12-06 15:08:11)

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#30 2009-12-06 16:53:10

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Hi Matt,

I think that's a pretty good idea.  Actually, I am very happy with lots of the ideas spawned by this thread.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#31 2009-12-07 06:32:47

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Jam wrote:

Seriously though, I hope he offered to pay?

Only one piece got doused, "Kyorei" and I don't think they would believe me if I told them how expensive a piece of paper with Japanese writing on it is. Next time I bring a photocopied version, Polizei or no Polizei. cool


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#32 2009-12-07 23:00:00

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Hello Lorka,   Just a thought, but if we took an informal poll of people who would be committed buyers of the set in whatever form is settled on,    and approx.  assumed for now the general number of $100.00 USD to be a nice round and possible price for maximum sales ,   you could get an idea of money possibly available for the project.      This would also help in analyzing the the cost needed to stay in this price range,  whether or not to save on the printed material and booklet , or to put everything into the recording session and we all ( buyers ) pdf on our own .  I personally would rather have the highest quality recording possible and print all the rest on my own at my own cost.     The biggest obstacle I see to this project is who would have the time and access to Okuda Sensei to do all the pre-mentioned histories and explanations of his works?   I see that as a huge time consuming thesis that actually we need to pay someone to do.      Another thought is we take up a second collection of money later and with committed pre-orders buy all the printed material and pay the person for their time.     So Calling UP ALL FORUM MEMBERS interested!!!!!!!!!    Please pre order now, whether or not we accomplish our agenda,  and assume $100.00 for now,   and also list the most you would possibly pay for the set.                                                                                                                                                        1.      MRWUWU    $100.00,   will pay up to $200.00 if pressed dearly                                                         2.James Nyman mentioned $100.00 in previous post?                                                                                 3.Matt Lyon, can you  gather up  $100 bucks in about a year from now? I heard you are poor student.                                                                                                                                                      So my theory is if you get 30 people to seriously commit, plus or minus the renegers,   and hopefully more plus purchasers by non forum members from around the world, that gives us $3,000.00 USD and let's say another one grand from the outside world.     With 4000 bucks I think that buys very tight or barely enough studio time for Okuda Sensei to do 60 honkyoku or pieces unless he can perform each piece perfectly in one take.   Tairaku mentioned studio time in Japan is even more expensive than ours.         So please criticize my reasoning, and unless Kiki applies for grant money as this project could work as a ethnomusical treasure,    I think we may not raise enough to fulfill this collaborative project.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#33 2009-12-07 23:33:23

Matt Lyon
Member
From: North Eastern Oregon
Registered: 2009-06-30
Posts: 92

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Mrwuwu,

I don't know where you heard I was a student. I am afraid I am a working stiff in the real world ;D

The problem with pledges is that things happen and the money won't come in. However, if you wanted to get an idea of who would preorder and then take their money that would work. Once we find out how much it is to do the recording and mastering a preorder for just the music could work.

A scheme that I was thinking about would be to get lets say 30 people to donate 35 buck a month. That equals 1050 per month. If you do that for 4 - 5 months it really starts adding up.


Matt

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#34 2009-12-08 00:50:13

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

I operate in a little different realm so please excuse me possibly being off base here but has anybody considered that Okuda might want to be paid for working his ass off? Who will "own" this project? Okuda? What is in this for him? Maybe posterity is enough for him. He would have to decide. It's kind of a long running beef with me. We'll pay the studio, we'll pay the manufacturer, we'll pay the scholar who writes the accompanying literature but no pay for Okuda? That sucks folks. Why do people think musicians should work for free? If I'm missing something here please straighten me out.

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2009-12-08 01:01:00)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#35 2009-12-08 01:34:26

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Jim Thompson wrote:

I operate in a little different realm so please excuse me possibly being off base here but has anybody considered that Okuda might want to be paid for working his ass off? Who will "own" this project? Okuda? What is in this for him? Maybe posterity is enough for him. He would have to decide. It's kind of a long running beef with me. We'll pay the studio, we'll pay the manufacturer, we'll pay the scholar who writes the accompanying literature but no pay for Okuda? That sucks folks. Why do people think musicians should work for free? If I'm missing something here please straighten me out.

Obviously he would own the project. The ideal model for these kinds of things is 50/50 split artist/label after recouping expenses. That's what I've been doing for years with licensing deals. That's much better than the 12% or so that is the usual major label deal.

If he needs an advance, well that's up to him, he should name his price. But it is not at all uncommon in the "indie" scene for the artist to be paid with product, i.e. CD's. Considering the incredibly high price people pay for CD's in Japan that could be worth a lot more than a grand or a few grand. wink

Hopefully nobody thinks they're going to get rich off of shakuhachi. Because they ain't.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#36 2009-12-08 02:40:32

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Brian,
      Thanks for taking time to explain. Your expertise and experience in these matters is appreciated. It sounds like all of the proper considerations are being taken. I'll throw in a hundred bucks to an exciting project.
      This may sound kind of weird but in a way I'm kind of glad there is not much money in Shakuhachi. No big money to be made keeps out certain elements.  Every body involved with shakuhachi is involved because they love the instrument and the music. There really isn't much more reason to be involved. That's pretty cool!


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#37 2009-12-08 04:06:36

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Hi Guys,

as you maybe know me and some friends making music since 10 - 15 years, I am new to that stuff but some friends of me own alot of equitment. I am wondering about the money thing, is it really so expensive to make music like this.

I think it will be a good idea to firts to the recordings (wich is really not expensive), mastering (maybe can be done at home, i will ask some friends). The only expensive thing will be to create the cd´s (boxes) and the sheets or what? Maybe it can be done 50-100 first and then if money gets in, some more.

I think a projekt wich is developed by a community must not cost much and it should not be something like major stuff or something. I like raw recordings. Mayber we can at a story in the booklet about this projekt and how it was developed and recorded.

I hope my post did not sound foolish to you.

Best wishes!


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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#38 2009-12-08 06:29:39

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Jim Thompson wrote:

. It sounds like all of the proper considerations are being taken. I'll throw in a hundred bucks to an exciting project.

No proper considerations have been taken as of yet. So far it's in the discussion stage. I have only explained what I think would be the proper way to do things.

First Lorka and the other Okuda students need to get things going in terms of capital. Then enlist support from the rank and file. Once the money is raised, get Okuda on board. After all that is accomplished the pros can step in and finish the project and make sure it achieves a proper release and some distribution.

Knowing Okuda the best way to record it would be to get him one of those digital stereo recorders Ken has and let him record at his leisure. No need to waste a fortune on a recording studio. Reverb and other processing can be added at the mastering stage. He could even take the little recorder around and record in different places.

CD's can be pressed properly in a minimum order of 500 copies. But if it's a 7-10 CD set or whatever that's a lot of CD's, each one costs at least $1. Plus the package.

I think the best model would be donations (of $$$$$$ and/or expertise) with everybody getting return on their investment in the form of CD's.

Notation should be separate because I don't think it's all that useful without lessons and explanations anyway. His notation is idiosyncratic.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#39 2009-12-08 07:58:50

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Okuda should own the project for sure. Once the expenses have been paid... he will get the money - well share it with the label as Tairaku says.
I haven't talked with Okuda regarding details of how much explanations of pieces he would like to do. And perhaps having detailed explanations of all the pieces might be too much... But let me discuss it with him. I will call him one of these days. I suppose the interviewing and writing up is something I should do. I know most of the pieces already, which would be a support as I have had them explained at least once before. But as he hasnt reacted in email correspondence to the score and explanation parts, it might be something he is thinking about.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#40 2009-12-08 10:58:56

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

I think the idea of giving him a recorder and letting him do it himself in his own time is a stellar idea. I think the end product would be better because he would have total control. He would have more freedom to do it until he thought it was best. If you put him in a studio, he would pretty much have to accept what he was able to do that day.

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2009-12-08 11:00:57)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#41 2009-12-08 12:19:04

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

I also like the voice recorder idea.  In fact, the more control Okuda has over this the better.  As to ownership of the project, it has always been assumed from the outset that it would be Okuda.

The main thing to answer is how many CD's/Unit's will the Box Set be comprised of.  I'm thinking between 6 and 8.  It's hard to say. 

The next question is, how much will each one cost.  Around $20 per CD seems a price that is fair both the artist and the buyer.  This is just a round number though.  One option might also be to give a discount to those who buy the full set at once.  This way, the buyer gets a discount, and the seller gets more units sold at once.

Once we have these, and other questions answered, then as Brian suggested, donations could be made, in the form of pre-orders.   This seems like a good way to keep everyone happy


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#42 2009-12-08 13:37:15

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Hi there.

I don't think we should under-estimate the importance of a real professional recording. I know that recording equipment today is amazing.... but this really subtle and nuanced way of playing shakuhachi - I think we need more mics and someone professional to set them up.
A sound engineer, who is presently in Japan, saw this thread has volunteered to at least test out how it would be to record Okuda at home (and perhaps he will do the recording).
We might have to do recording sessions at night - but that is in my world quite normal to do so. For example many of Frank Denyer's pieces played by Iwamoto have been recorded at Dartington Hall in the middle of the night.
I would really like to see someone with a good sense of what is needed to pick up all the wonderful overtones, whistle sounds etc record Okuda. If we can't get that.... we can use the self-recording as a second solution. But I don't think that should be our first plan. Remember also Nyokai warned us not to under-estimate the difficulty of making a good recording. I actually agree with that.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#43 2009-12-08 14:21:55

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Hey Kiku,

That's good news indeed.  You and Nyokai are probably quite right to suggest going with a pro, as there may be unforseen problematic areas that a pro would be able to compensate for.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#44 2009-12-08 17:04:24

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Regarding the price of the CDs. If we can gather enough money to cover the initial expenses, to press CDs is really cheap. And as long as we don't make the CDs in Japan and use a Japanese label - the CD price should be able to be kept at what we regard as a good and reasonable price.
The part I don't know much about is the price of the booklet. Anyone experienced in this kind of world? Although download etc is a good idea, I'd like to look into how much it would cost to make a booklet. I will ask around as well. smile Good night!


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#45 2009-12-08 17:29:45

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

i think digital is the way to go. He can sell them as mp3s & pdf download from his website (paypal acount) done! because, honestly i won't pay $20 for cd & shipping. Options are good for bussines. (maybe he can burn CD his computer , even cheaper that way)

Last edited by geni (2009-12-08 17:32:58)

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#46 2009-12-08 18:10:17

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Lorka wrote:

The next question is, how much will each one cost.  Around $20 per CD seems a price that is fair both the artist and the buyer.  This is just a round number though.  One option might also be to give a discount to those who buy the full set at once.  This way, the buyer gets a discount, and the seller gets more units sold at once.

I thought the idea was to issue it as a box set. If you have each one issued sequentially you'll sell a lot of the first one and then less and less of each after that. That makes it difficult to commit to pressing 1000 or 500 or whatever.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#47 2009-12-08 18:13:04

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Lorka wrote:

Hey Kiku,

That's good news indeed.  You and Nyokai are probably quite right to suggest going with a pro, as there may be unforseen problematic areas that a pro would be able to compensate for.

Depends on how much you wanna spend on studio time/engineer. If someone donates that great.......then the only issue is whether Okuda will be comfortable and give good performances that way. I think the key to his sound is that it will have to be recorded in a small room. He does not pump out a lot of volume.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#48 2009-12-08 18:51:26

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Kiku Day wrote:

Okuda should own the project for sure. Once the expenses have been paid... he will get the money - well share it with the label as Tairaku says.

Personally I don't understand why anybody needs a record label anymore.......put stuff out on your own label. But if you want to go with a label do a 50/50 split after agreed expenses and sign a limited time license (3, 5 or 7 years depending upon the advance and other factors).

The problem I see looming with this project is that in the end suppose there are 500 or 1000 of these box sets. They have to be manufactured somewhere and then shipped to:

Japan-for Okuda and his students/fans

USA-fans

Canada-Okuda cabal there.

EU-Okuda students and fans there

Oz-maybe not because I'm the only one here who knows about him.

It will be a trick to ship to that many spots without running into customs BS.

I know a company here who gets their stuff pressed in China and will have it delivered to multiple destinations.  I'll talk to them. But later in the process.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#49 2009-12-08 20:16:35

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Eeep, suddenly my absence of avatar is replaced by a very scary one.

I'm with you Brian on the issue of just doing it yourself, on your own label.  I have several musician friends who have done exactly that.  The good thing about the technological state of affairs at the present time is that it puts back alot of power into the hands of the artist, and cuts out the middle-men.  A more direct connection between artist and audience is always (in my book), a good thing.

I did not mean to suggest back there that it would not be a box set.  I merely raised the possibility of purchasing (possibly via digital download), a part of the set, rather than the whole thing.  If someone is only interested in one CD from the set, I don't see why they should have to buy the whole thing.  Then again, maybe it is an all in one thing.   I'm not sure yet. 

Realistically though, people who would want to buy 1 CD, would likley want to buy the whole set.  So most sales would be of the entire retertoire, as represented by the 6-8 CDs. 

I just figured options are good.  This, of course, is up to Okuda and I do not mean to put words into his mouth without speaking with Kiku on it.   I'm just kinda brainstorming out loud with this stuff.  I'm still a newbie grasshopper here.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#50 2009-12-08 23:38:16

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Okuda Box Set Update

Hi! Matt,   Sorry to remember you as a student,  I just clearly remembered the time payment plan and wrongly assumed the rest.       I just don't know who would have the time to do all the paperwork and reminders to pay,   but worst of all the people who are unable to finish their payment in full and the possible ensuing mess,  meaning not enough collected monies to fulfill the project.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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