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#1 2010-02-24 12:34:41

Mike Raftery
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-10-25
Posts: 44

Korokoro help please.

I'm trying to understand the correct sequence of playing a korokoro from Yokoyama-sensei's notes which I recently purchased. What I understand from his illustration is that the first step is a rapid alternation between holes 1; then close 1- open 2, then close 2 open 3,  with hole 5 staying open the during this complete sequence. And then reverse from hole 3 open, then closed- to 2 open, then closed- to 3 open.  So, is it after just one cycle, that you transition to RO kan with 5 open beginning in extreme Meri into O-Meri into Chu-Meri, AND then SWITCH to RO Kan kari all holes closed?? Or is it that somethimes you switch to RO kan 5 open, played in Meri, and sometimes you transition to RO kan 5 closed, played kari,  depending on what the notation indicates?

I can't tell how many cycles of opening and closing 1,2 and 3 before going into RO?   

I don't have a teacher at the moment but I would like to practice these techniques accurately.  I realize this is a very advance technique and I have only been playing for a year or so but I have a lot of spare time on my hands for practice.  It beats TV, surfing the net or reading another novel.

Thank you for any help you can supply

Mike

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#2 2010-02-24 13:45:44

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Korokoro help please.

From Kakizakai Kaoru's shakuhachi tips [LOTS more at: http://www.kotodama.net/shakuhachi/tips.html]:

“Koro-koro” is a crucial technique among modern pieces as well as honkyoku (especially Tsuru no Sugomori). It is one of the most instinctive and important shakuhachi techniques there is, but it is also often performed poorly. At the Shakuhachi Kenshu-Kan, it is played by partially opening hole 5, meri-ing, and sequentially opening and closing holes 1 and 2. This technique gives strong intonation.

The crucial thing about koro-koro is pitch. The pitch of “koro-koro-koro…” is “Ri-ri-ri”. Without this correct pitch, the technique will never be complete. The pitch will tend to rise when hole 2 is open, so you must meri more deeply then. It is also helpful not to raise the second finger as high from the hole, which also helps hold down the pitch. This is especially crucial in during slow koro’s, such as at the beginning of Daha [or :43 on in the sound clip above].

Besides pitch, people also have the problem of muddy or indistinct transitions between the sounds. The various sound of the technique should be bright and clear. One reason for muddiness in some players is that there is no time when both holes 1 and 2 are closed. There must be a brief instant while you are opening 1 and closing 2 (or the reverse) where both holes are closed. This gives rise to the distinctive “popping” sound and helps make the different sounds stand out. Remember, the order is “Open 1 > Close 1 > Open 2 > Close 2 > Open 1”.

Be sure to practice at a speed where you can follow both of the above points (insuring a good pitch of Ri and a brief space where both holes are closed). The idea is to implant the proper motions in your muscle memory. Everybody tends to go at the technique full speed, but precision is more important than speed. Once you have precision down pat, speed will easily follow. Practicing along with a metronome isn’t a bad idea. Ten minutes of koro-koro a day and you can become a koro-koro master.

Here's some more:


The most important thing about korokoro is that it's actually three fingerings in a four note pattern.

1st note: Start with fingers 2,3,4 closed and 5(thumb) half open. Play it meri.

2nd note: Close hole 1. The pitch should go up. Make sure you hear it.

3rd note: Open hole 2. (1 is still closed.) The pitch goes down again. Adjust your meri (make it deeper) so that you get the same pitch as the first note.

Repeat 2nd note: Close hole 2. Again, don't rush. Make sure you hear it.

Start again at the 1st note by opening hole 1.


Practice this slowly and gradually speed up. Don't let yourself just swap fingers 1 & 2 -- they have to both be down long enough for their note to sound. When you're going fast enough you no longer have to adjust the meri on the 3rd note.


There's another version of this: Instead of 4 closed and 5 half open, you can just crack both 4 and 5 -- the rest is the same. The tone color is different and might be preferable sometimes, but I usually find it more difficult to play.

Finally, here's a link to a sound clip of Yokoyama-sensei playing several variants of Koro-koro in the piece 'Suzuru."

       http://www.kotodama.net/shakuhachi/suzuru.mp3

That should keep you busy for a coupla days...

Last edited by edosan (2010-02-24 13:46:23)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2010-02-24 14:18:46

Mike Raftery
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-10-25
Posts: 44

Re: Korokoro help please.

So, hole 3 is never open during the sequence?  I have been misinterpreting the illustration in the book. I've been practicing korokoro opening 3, thank you. 
  But how many sequences of this does one do before transitioning to RO?  A big hurdle for me at this time in interpreting the notation: so when I see the backward c (symbol for korokoro) next to a RO in a score,  how many series of alternations does one do before transitioning to RO?

Thanks again, you have been extremely helpful.

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#4 2010-02-24 14:54:33

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Korokoro help please.

Mike Raftery wrote:

But how many sequences of this does one do before transitioning to RO?  A big hurdle for me at this time in interpreting the notation: so when I see the backward c (symbol for korokoro) next to a RO in a score,  how many series of alternations does one do before transitioning to RO?

That's up to the player, namely, you. The tricky part is the part of Koro-koro you make the transition to Ro FROM, so that it sounds 'right'.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2010-02-24 14:59:02

Mike Raftery
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-10-25
Posts: 44

Re: Korokoro help please.

I think I got your point.  Thanks again.
Gonna work on it.

Last edited by Mike Raftery (2010-03-02 21:37:13)

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#6 2010-02-26 11:46:27

Austin Shadduck
Member
From: New York, NY
Registered: 2008-09-21
Posts: 38
Website

Re: Korokoro help please.

edosan wrote:

There's another version of this: Instead of 4 closed and 5 half open, you can just crack both 4 and 5 -- the rest is the same. The tone color is different and might be preferable sometimes, but I usually find it more difficult to play.

Great post. Isn't the quoted technique actually horo horo?


“His first, last and only formal instruction for me was embodied in one word: observe.” -Billy Strayhorn on Duke Ellington

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#7 2010-02-26 12:13:39

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Korokoro help please.

edosan wrote:

From Kakizakai Kaoru's shakuhachi tips [LOTS more at: http://www.kotodama.net/shakuhachi/tips.html]:

“Koro-koro” is a crucial technique among modern pieces as well as honkyoku (especially Tsuru no Sugomori).

Does it often go along with the fluttter tonguing, like here?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li4jHg7CbGc

edosan wrote:

That should keep you busy for a coupla days...

Maybe even three!


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#8 2010-02-26 14:47:39

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Korokoro help please.

Austin Shadduck wrote:

edosan wrote:

There's another version of this: Instead of 4 closed and 5 half open, you can just crack both 4 and 5 -- the rest is the same. The tone color is different and might be preferable sometimes, but I usually find it more difficult to play.

Great post. Isn't the quoted technique actually horo horo?

Well, it's quoted from the notes of Kakizakai-sensei, and since he seems to be calling it Koro-koro, I'd tend to go with him on that.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#9 2010-02-26 15:59:49

Matt Lyon
Member
From: North Eastern Oregon
Registered: 2009-06-30
Posts: 92

Re: Korokoro help please.

edosan wrote:

Austin Shadduck wrote:

edosan wrote:

There's another version of this: Instead of 4 closed and 5 half open, you can just crack both 4 and 5 -- the rest is the same. The tone color is different and might be preferable sometimes, but I usually find it more difficult to play.

Great post. Isn't the quoted technique actually horo horo?

Well, it's quoted from the notes of Kakizakai-sensei, and since he seems to be calling it Koro-koro, I'd tend to go with him on that.

Sounds like different people call it different things. I believe Austin is a student of Chikuzen as am I. In one of the lessons Chikuzen mentioned horo-horo when we were going over koro-koro.

Last edited by Matt Lyon (2010-02-26 16:00:29)

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#10 2010-02-26 18:03:25

Austin Shadduck
Member
From: New York, NY
Registered: 2008-09-21
Posts: 38
Website

Re: Korokoro help please.

Matt Lyon wrote:

I believe Austin is a student of Chikuzen as am I.

Yep! I actually can't find any clear distinctions between koro koro and horo horo online. It looks like there was something here:

http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?pid=392

but the link no longer exists.

My understanding is that horo horo is a more subtle koro koro because of its slightly altered fingering, and horo horo is the Meian version of koro koro (although it is sometimes used in Kinko pieces), but I'll have to double check.

Last edited by Austin Shadduck (2010-02-26 18:13:17)


“His first, last and only formal instruction for me was embodied in one word: observe.” -Billy Strayhorn on Duke Ellington

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#11 2010-02-26 18:18:44

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Korokoro help please.

Austin Shadduck wrote:

... and horo horo is the Meian version of koro koro ...

Taizan Ha Meian as I understand it, Horo Horo is distinguished from other schools' Koro Koro because 4 in closed, 5 is completely open, chin position is down. A more open, gurgling or gobbling sound.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#12 2010-02-26 19:04:44

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Korokoro help please.

When I played with Yokoyama sensei, he had #4 closed and #5 open. Shading #5 was only used if one needed to to keep the pitch at Ri when the #1 hole is open.  He called this Korokoro.

Taniguchi sensei played with both styles but more often like mentioned above as closing #4 brings in more of the higher overtones. Tones that you can deal though.

Partially covering #4 and #5 creates a tendency for a more breathier sound. This works well with older flutes. Closing #4 for older flutes means you usually have to blow softly as a stronger breath will make the higher overtones come out. These tones are too high and are not useful, unlike the technique I mentioned above.

I call the #4 closed technique Korokoro as that's what Yokoyama sensei called it and it's a harder sound. K is harsher than H so it fits.

I call the #4 & #5 shaded version Horohoro because they are softer sounds.  H is softer than K so it fits.

My choice is so my students and I have a common vocabulary and is partially built out of my experience when learning and partially my own usage for convenience.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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