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#1 2009-03-28 10:26:32

Thomas
Member
From: New York City
Registered: 2006-04-21
Posts: 81

Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Hi Folks,
I'm currently practicing Mujushin Kyoku and am having difficulty with the two Re Dai Kans.  Any technical advice on achieving this note?  Alternate fingerings, etc?  Additionally, the notation indicates that this note should be played yawaku/weakly(!) which is not easy. Any insight would be helpful, thanks.

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#2 2009-03-28 11:58:32

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Thomas wrote:

Hi Folks,
I'm currently practicing Mujushin Kyoku and am having difficulty with the two Re Dai Kans.  Any technical advice on achieving this note?  Alternate fingerings, etc?  Additionally, the notation indicates that this note should be played yawaku/weakly(!) which is not easy. Any insight would be helpful, thanks.

Have you tried cracking hole 4 just a touch? [and I can't imagine how you're going to pull off 'weakly', either...]


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2009-03-28 12:37:01

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Thomas,
The following work for me:
C = closed, H= half/shaded-hole, O=open
5  4 3  2 1
C C C H O
C H  3 2 1
C H  O C C
C H O C O

Weakly comes with practice, using a very small amount of very fast moving air.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#4 2009-03-28 18:00:32

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Thomas,
The following work for me:
C = closed, H= half/shaded-hole, O=open
5  4 3  2 1
C C C H O
C H  3 2 1
C H  O C C
C H O C O

Weakly comes with practice, using a very small amount of very fast moving air.

later...

What does: C H 3 2 1 mean?


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2009-03-28 18:49:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Re dai kan is a note not all flutes have. Did you ask Jim to check the flute to make sure it exists? I know you got that flute from me but I don't remember whether I tested for it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2009-03-28 19:09:36

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

edosan wrote:

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Thomas,
The following work for me:
C = closed, H= half/shaded-hole, O=open
5  4 3  2 1
C C C H O
C H  3 2 1
C H  O C C
C H O C O

Weakly comes with practice, using a very small amount of very fast moving air.

later...

What does: C H 3 2 1 mean?

I can be such an idiot.
C H C C C

Sorry about that.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#7 2009-03-28 23:12:25

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Bruce Hunter wrote:

edosan wrote:

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Thomas,
The following work for me:
C = closed, H= half/shaded-hole, O=open
5  4 3  2 1
C C C H O
C H  3 2 1
C H  O C C
C H O C O

Weakly comes with practice, using a very small amount of very fast moving air.

later...

What does: C H 3 2 1 mean?

I can be such an idiot.
C H C C C

Sorry about that.

later...

Interesting that you don't have the one that's worked on the jiari flutes I've had:

  C H C O O

Wherein the 'H' is just lifting the index finger slightly off hole 4, or just tipping that finger to slightly open the
side of hole 4.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2009-03-29 07:35:11

Thomas
Member
From: New York City
Registered: 2006-04-21
Posts: 81

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Thanks for the info and alternate fingerings.  I did, in fact, have Jim try it before I wrote this post.  He could get the note, but stated it's "a little difficult".  I can sound the note on occasion, but it's not reliable, and certainly not quiet.  I'm at work right now, but look forward to trying these fingerings tonight.  Like most things on shakuhachi; it's probably just a matter of practice.

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#9 2009-03-29 23:08:57

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

This reminds me of something Kurahashi said when he was teaching this piece. He said we play the re dai kan "yo waku" (weakly) because in the old days players had difficulty playing that note and the flutes didn't make it easily. So to get a realistic performance true to the old modes we intentionally play it that way instead of blasting it out like the modern players would.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#10 2009-03-29 23:56:11

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

edosan wrote:

Wherein the 'H' is just lifting the index finger slightly off hole 4, or just tipping that finger to slightly open the
side of hole 4.

A similar technique Yoshizawa sensei showed me was the usual CCCOO but quickly hitting the fourth hole as you attack.  That will sometimes make the dai kan re come out easier.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#11 2009-03-30 00:43:52

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Depending on the flute, I play dai kan re with the same fingering as re but meri.  Another technique I was told of was to play re with normal fingering which probably will sound sharp in dai kan, then shading the bottom opening with your thigh.  Talk about acrobatics!  You don't want to attack that one very quickly.  Could result in a trip to the dentist.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#12 2009-03-30 03:50:58

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

edosan wrote:

Interesting that you don't have the one that's worked on the jiari flutes I've had:

  C H C O O

Wherein the 'H' is just lifting the index finger slightly off hole 4, or just tipping that finger to slightly open the
side of hole 4.

Good catch Edosan! Your fingering gives a note horribly sharp for me. Which means, if one can meri it far enough, there's the "weakly" we're in such hot pursuit of.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#13 2009-03-31 21:52:55

bblyman2000
Member
From: Ronkonkoma NY
Registered: 2007-04-12
Posts: 15

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

Hi Thomas - You could try this fingering.  It's basically ri with the bottom hole open hitting the fifth of C giving you G (re dai kan).  The fingering is 5  4  3  2  1
                                                                                           C O  O C  O
Could also try leaving the bottom hole # 1 closed.  I find this fingering works on most flutes where other fingerings don't.  Be Well, Bob.

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#14 2010-01-29 00:08:04

axolotl
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
Website

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

This is a great topic!  I am struggling with this note as well.  Perhaps a more expensive flute would solve my problem...tongue

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#15 2010-01-29 01:11:49

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

axolotl wrote:

Perhaps a more expensive flute would solve my problem...tongue

Perhaps, but up around Re dai kan, things can get a bit variable, even with expensive flutes. Sometimes you have to experiment.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#16 2010-01-29 23:55:13

axolotl
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
Website

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

I'm starting to get a ghost of re dai kan out of my "table leg" after all.

*update* got it. Once, but definitively.

Last edited by axolotl (2010-01-31 18:42:21)

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#17 2010-03-01 21:43:40

axolotl
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
Website

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

edosan wrote:

axolotl wrote:

Perhaps a more expensive flute would solve my problem...tongue

Perhaps, but up around Re dai kan, things can get a bit variable, even with expensive flutes. Sometimes you have to experiment.

I discovered that a really cheap (but good) MAPLE shakuhachi generated this note more easily for me than from my David Brown shakuhachi.  Still working on it!  ...and will be for 30 years.

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#18 2010-03-02 07:29:30

Thomas
Member
From: New York City
Registered: 2006-04-21
Posts: 81

Re: Re Dai Kan in Mujushin Kyoku

I just encountered this note again in Zangetsu.  FWIW,   

C H C O O 

works best for me, esp with 4 open generously.   Thanks again for all the input.

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